the NOLIP thread

MY PROPOSAL ~ Nolipianism

Natural Sin ~ as a result of Adam’s sin all mankind has been subjected to the power of sin and death.
Ontological Intent ~ God created us to be just who we are. though we have choices and are responsible for them we cannot escape the factors that make us who we are.
Limited Atonement ~ only those who respond positively to Jesus Christ are atoned for. those who do not accept him are necessarily not atoned for and therefore atonement is limited.
Inconceivable Grace ~ this is made possible only by Gods grace through Jesus death, burial and resurrection.
Perseverance of Saints ~ yes, they will; being indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and sealed by him.

God created man…(Genesis 1:28)
the first man sinned in the garden…(Genesis 3:6-7)
our sin is tied to his…(Romans 5:12)
for all have sinned...(Romans 3:23)
the wages are death...(Romans 6:23a)
while we were sinners Christ died...(Romans 5:8)
and rose from the dead…(Acts 2:24)
defeating sin and death…(1 Cornithians 15:27)
bc of this God offers man the gift of life...(Romans 6:23b)
being pleased to save those who believe…(1 Corinthians 1:21)
who he calls through grace…(2 Tim 1:9)
so if we confesses he will forgive...(1 John 1:9)
and there is no condemnation in Christ...(Romans 8:1)
so call on his name and be baptized...(Acts 22:16)
and know that you have eternal life...(1 John 5:13)
being sealed with the Holy Spirit...(Ephesians 1:13)

Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. since none of us gets to personally choose who is elect and who is not we should all passionately take part in that which the Father not only allows us to do but commands it ~ the ministry of reconciliation. We are the chosen tools that God has decided to use to bring others to his Inconceivable Grace. Go therefore and do it. Make disciples. Teach scripture. There’s more power and truth in one sentence from the Word of God than in 24 hours worth of what you or I think about this or that. Gods Word is authoritative. The Holy Spirit will use it whenever it is spoken to convict and to shine a light into the darkness. This is what the world needs. Not a bunch of disagreeable argumentative Christians.

As for me, I desire to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:2)

I notice you entirely skip over the period of time in which Jesus was actually alive; according to this scheme, nothing he did or said while alive is particularly relevant.

Second, this - and most evangelicals - let believers off too easy. The problem is not claiming you've surrendered yourself to JC, or even believing you have, but actually doing it. That's where what he had to say while he was alive comes in.

thanks for pointing this out. although the NOLIP systematic is only meant to address the theological doctrine of atonement - maybe i need to be more specific about how his perfect life made his sacrifice on our behalf a viable means of atonement.

Ah! Just atonement.

OK, something that was never clear to me: the cause/effect relationship of Adam's original sin. Is it actually supposed to be the cause of our inherently sinful nature, or is it a reflection of it? If it's a cause of it, does that imply that human nature was fundamentally changed by Adam's actions?

Also, I don't really understand what you mean by Perseverance of Saints

That would be really good, GS, as often times there is a misconception about atonement and what it means, the sin offering and what Jesus changed about that, what the shedding of His blood actually accomplished, and what it means to be His family who approaches the throne in His name. How to condense it down into a few sentences that make sense is where I always have trouble .

God bless,
Terri

My favorite point is the "I", that is something we all need to realize as we approach systematics in my humble opinion.

EDIT: I agree with all points and, if you put it on a t-shirt I'll buy one

ok - you asked for this:

blatant branding of a theological concept, how evangelical.

next thing you know you are going to be a shirtmaker to support your evangelism/missionary work. very Pauline.

AH HA!! How much? I need a bigun, cause, as you know, I'm a big fat tub of malarkey.

amazing question.


obviously man could be tempted in the garden. but how can we be tempted if we do not know good or evil, which is what the tree provided. were we all children of wrath from the beggining, even though the first sinner was made directly by God?

children of wrath -> NKJV Ephesians 2: 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

James let me explain the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, if you don’t mind, by a contrasting of ideas.

First consider Arminian paradigm which states:

1) A person must persevere in the faith.
2) A believer can lose their faith.
3) Those dying without Christ are condemned.

And contrast that to the Antinomian paradigm which states:

1) True believers can lose their faith.
2) If a believer looses their faith they remain saved.
3) If a person is saved they are always saved.

And then consider the Reformed doctrine of perseverance.

1) A person must persevere in the faith to be saved.
2) Salvation is a gift of God, and the believer perseveres.
3) Those dying without faith are condemned.
4) Those who fall away from the faith never had eternal life.
5) God preserves believers and they will be saved.

So the three main paradigms are, 1) A believer that loses their faith is condemned, 2) A believer that loses their faith is saved, 3) A true believer doesn’t lose their faith, and those that appear to didn’t have it in the first place.

Here are the main scriptures for the three views:

Believers must persevere to the end. This supports the Arminian and Reformed doctrine that a person that is saved must persevere to the end. These scriptures are believed in both paradigms.

You must persevere to the end:
1) Colossians 1:21-23
2) 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6
3) Hebrews 10:26-31
4) Hebrews 12:1

A believer that looses his faith will persevere, this supports both the Antinomian and the Reformed belief. These scriptures are believed in both paradigms.

You will persevere to the end:
1) John 6:38-40
2) John 10:28-29
3) Romans 8:28-39
4) Philippians 1:4-6
5) Philippians 2:12-13
6) 1 John 2:19

To consider the Reformed doctrine of perseverance one must accept both sets of scripture. The first set cannot refute the second (Arminian paradigm) and the second cannot refute the first (Antinomian paradigm), but both sets of scripture must be accepted as the Biblical doctrine and taken as a whole teaching (Reformed paradigm).

So here is the doctrine in a nutshell. The Reformed paradigm is true because all scriptural teaching is true and accepted within the paradigm. Faith is a commanded response to all people, it is a gift of God and given to the elect. Faith is not an action of a “free will”, if it was then it could be lost, as the Arminian paradigm teaches. But faith is a fruit that believer bears as he is in union with the Spirit of God, Gal 5:22. Since this faith cannot be lost the true elect will persevere. Can professing Christian fall away? Yes and they do, these people will be condemned. Can the elect of God fall away? No, for they are born of the Spirit and given eternal life and bear the fruit of the Spirit. So we can say, that both of the above propositions are true. And the Biblical view understands that they are both in fact the teaching of scripture. God causes those of the faith to persevere, He preserves them by the Eternal Spirit, and they bear the fruit of God. Those professing Christians who leave the faith, are not truly believers and those that remain faithful are believers. Notice the qualifications in both 1 John 2:19 and Hebrews 10:39.

that Tallen knows his Reformed stuff. i looked pretty hard to find a fault, cuz Tallen is my new debate buddy, and i can not find one. this is a great little primer for the Reformed view of perseverance of the saints. the P in T.U.L.I.P.

good stuff Tallen.

Yes - thanks, quite clear.

Don't give Tallen too much credit, I have read the bulk of this somewhere and had placed it in my notes for future reference. This is probably a cheat sheet for a much larger teaching, or notes from a sermon that this was taught in and probably from several years ago. I was cleaning my office last weekend and came across some of my notes, some as far back as the late 70's and started to read them. This was inpart some of those notes.

It had to be the Spirit of God as He put this in mind for this particular post.

I really have a problem with the "Limited Atonment." I think that part just really bothers me to no end. There are scriptures that say "Christ died once of all" and there is even one in 1 John where it says "Christ died for the whole world." I just can't bend those scriptures enough to say Christ died only for those that would believe in Him. I also find it fairly difficult to believe that people go to hell for the sins they commit (adultry, murder, ect) but that they are sent to hell because they were not sealed by the Spirit (recieved Christ, not recieved His forgiveness, but revieved Him as a lifestyle). Any help on this would be great... I think I believe Limited Atonment is correct... I just can't get around certain verses to "make" it correct...

Start with this idea A, that Christ did die for the whole world, he did die for the sin of mankind. But that in itself doesn't mean that Christ's atonement will save all these individuals, but instead that Christ's atonement benefits all of mankind.

Every person receives some benefit from His death, and grace is given to all of mankind because of His death.

For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. (1Ti 4:10 KJV)

Notice the contrast in this verse that Christ is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. It seems there is a double level in mind of what salvation is. On the first level Christ benefits every man, and then those benefits are especially given to those that believe.

Okay I can receive that part of it... and I actually like that idea. God's work has blessed all mankind because it should have empowered every believer (as it pleases Christ) to be empowered by the Spirit and therefore make life that much better even for those that don't believe.

Yes, the believer is the salt of the earth in that respect, meaning that salt preserves and keeps something from total rot and decay, at least for a while. It is the believers influence in thier family, community, society and world that keeps evil from ravishing the whole of mankind. Think how long would the world last if men were allowed to do what was in their hearts?

Also, there is a prevenient grace that is given to all mankind. Shock... prevenient is not an Arminian term, but an Augustinian term that was used to describe how God preserves men from falling into utter and absolute evil. God's grace is always prevenient in that He gives grace that prevents certian outcomes. For the believer that outcome is that he is kept from hell and self. For the unbeliever he is kept from being an absolutely evil being without any goodness whatever.

just a side note, don't most reformed folk use the term "common grace" rather than prevenient grace?

just a side note, don't most reformed folk use the term "common grace" rather than prevenient grace?

Yes, most do. But the concept is the same. All grace is both preemptive and preventive in nature, effectual.