Question, Ki and Stamina loss

I've realised something. When techniques COST a percentage it doesn't really matter how much ki you have the result will be the same. If your ki is 100 and your opponent's ki is a 1000 and you both use an technique that cost 25% you both will have 75% percent ki left. Which means if a weaker opponent has the same moves as a stronger opponent they can use the same amout of moves. I don't know but doesn't it seem a bit stupid to you? Yeah the person with 1000 ki's attack will be stronger but still.

I've been wondering of a way for ki and stamina to be really usefull. Saying an action uses 0.2% stamina is an improvement but it will be the same thing as with the ki thing. Right now your Power Level only determines if you can get counters and how strong you're ki attacks are which is right. The only usefull stats are strength, speed and to some extent toughness.

My question is are you happy with the way the costs are meaning a weaker fighter being able to do as much moves as a stronger fighter meaning they tire at the same rate. Or would making cost be like 50 ki for a super dodonpa for example be more realistic and affective bringing a combination of ability and strategim to battle in the case of near equal opponents. It will make them far harder in general and shorter in the case of weaker opponents fighting especially if you add the same principle to stamina.

Actually, according to the literal definitions of the rules, the attacks of the person with 100 stamina and the person with 1,000 stamina are the same level.

We went through this once.

I could re-post it but this has been discussed numerous times.

I think it should be like this.
EX: When using an attack that costs 2% ki: we divide our PL by 8 to get X, and then calculate 2% of X to get Y. Then, Y would get substracted from our stamina.
That would force us to raise our stamina constantly. A higher PL means a stronger ki attack, and a stronger ki attack means more strain to the body.

This post has been edited by Tambourine on Nov 1 2009, 05:41 PM

Hm, Yes. This drew my attention too at first. I was wondering how that could be. But like Tambourine has said. That the 'Mathematical' way like that is how it will work.

Yeah I would like to see it, Sanara.

Is 8 a random number, Tams? I think I understand though and it makes sense. Because I don't think a guy of 1000 ki should be able to use for example 10 moves that cost 10% ki when a guy of 10,000 ki can also just use 10 moves because it cost 10% ki.

A good counter argument to this will be but the move of the guy with 10,000 will be stronger for the 10% ki he uses respectively but still.

I think you're trying to explain that the amount of energy based attacks you can use should be determined by you stamina and not your ki which makes sense, Tams. Ki should instead determine how strong the attack is which will make calculations easier and more relative if you think of the ki cost being a percentage. After all Power Level or Battle Power is an overall rating of strength, speed, toughness, vitality and ki that's all. It measures how powerful a person is in the collective. Ki should determine how powerful ki based attacks are and stamina the amount of times you can attack before becoming exhuasted. Do you agree, Tams?

Well, 8 was not a random number. If all your stats are even, every stat is your PL divided by 8; so with my system, if you raise your other stats but not stamina, your ki would also increase and you would fire stronger ki blasts, but you wouldn't have the stamina to handle them all.

And Ki divided by 4 would be the same than PL divided by 8.

Oh I see now. What do you think of the ki equals power of ki attack theory? You see since you work out a advanced attack like this: pl + (pl x ki cost) = x.. Doesn't it make more sense that ki + (ki x ki cost) = x is the right way. Why? Since pl is ki, str, tou, vit and sta in other words a rating of how strong you are overall. Meaning str determine how hard you punch, spd determine how fast you are, tou determine how hard a punch you can take, vit determine how many punches you can take and sta how many attacks you can make. Then ki should determine how strong your ki attacks is and not how many times you can use ki attacks if sta already got that covered.

The thing is, Ki is and will always be half of your PL, so changing that would only weaken your attacks.

The more ki that is used, the stronger the attack. That is why when you "use" more ki during ki battles, your attack becomes stronger and you are able to overpower your opponent.

So yes, since it is based off percents, each person could use the same attacks the same number of times but the attacks of the person that is using more ki will all be exponentially stronger.

Hey, Razak, I found this message in a thread from long ago. I was puzzled as to how you calculated this.

That would make stamina useful, but I don't understand how you calculated that.

Exactly my point. Don't you think it's a little weird that if both you and your opponent has 10,000 pl and even stats meaning ki 5,000 and the rest 1,250. That when you use an advanced technique like kamehameha meaning the power of the attack will be 10,000 x (10% + 25% [5 damage levels]) = 3,500. That makes your attack 2,250 stronger then your opponent's toughness and vitality which is only 1,250. Realistically that should kill that person and it's only and advanced technique.

Like I said Power Level is an overall RATING of how powerful you are. It doesn't determine the power of your attack's ki does. It's like you're saying a batsman's overall rating is 75 on the ranking so the rate at which he scores is 75. Look at this using ki to determine the power of a ki attack 5,000 x (10% + 25% [5 damage levels]) = 1,750. It's still higher then your opponents other stats but not by so much. That's 500 like 500 more and an finisher that uses 10% and has 5 damage levels will do 5,000 x (10% + 50% [5 damage levels]) = 3,000. That's 1750 more then your opponent's other stats. Which is damaging enough. If you charge it up even more then it only get's stronger. Power Level doesn't determine the ability to defend and take hits toughness and vitality does.

So look at this. I've been wondering when it was okay to block or dodge an advance move. In the case of the advance technique (1,750) and your speed in this scenario (1,250) and your toughness (1,250). Let's talk about dodging first the attack is 1,750, 500 more then your speed. This should mean you can't dodge it period. If, however, you use ST your speed will be 1,875 meaning your faster then the ki attack allowing you to dodge it at the cost of using a ST. This is FAR more realistic and will stop people of doing a crap role-play like holding the kamehameha in his hand and teleporting in front of the dude. Razak and Tams you guys have to admit that's truly shit role-playing. In the case of toughness wearing armor can allow you to have enough toughness to dodge the attack.

Let's look at the damage on vitality in both cases. Remember you and your opponent's vitality is 1,250. The advanced ki attack will do 3,500 damage (using pl) and 1,750 (using ki). Which is more realistic if the guy doesn't block or dodge the attack? Saying his still alive after something 1000 more then double his vit hit him or something 500 more?

This will also allow people's individual strengths to shine. One opponent is faster (2,000 speed) and the other opponent tougher (2,000 toughness). One guy will be able to dodge the other guy's unpowered ki attack and the other can block it. This will make energy charger and doubler more then just increasing damage because it's fun. It will make it actually mean something: To by pass you're opponent's defenses. If that's not strategy then uncle sam can push an pineapple up my ass and i'll piss some juice for ya'll.

This will make role-playing battles far more realistic and reffing far easier in calculating damage.

P.S I see you locked the thread. Razak I think you miss understood what I meant. You can make the maximum base actions 5 but allow other stuff to break the limit like double zanzoken, tactical passive, energizers etc. I would suggest you make the base limit 4 since people are able to get 1 more action then they use to before the changes.

Check the patch before you talk, Goku.

That would make stamina useful, but I don't understand how you calculated that.

Without having to go back and redo all my math (because I just woke up and don't feel like it) the simple answer is that you first are deducting stamina rather than power level so it acts like a "buffer" between fatigue and your lowering of PL. When you use ki, it lowers your power level but stamina can be "spent" to off set that.

Yeah I saw Pan my mistake.

You're still ignoring the fact of the bigger bit of the post:

Then I guess that is where ki battles and such would come in.

However, I think we can all agree the system is somewhat broken.

But, it is rare for two people to be exactly the same strength. You may be using up the same ki, but that does not mean the strength will be the same simply because of how much ki a person has.

Yeah I understand but even if your pl is 7000 and mine is 5000 but my toughness for example is my strongest stat then it's the same thing. It's more about changing the calculations to be done on ki then on pl. Making everything easier and more effective for the combatants and refs alike. I know you must have thought about this at some point. Even if I'm weaker then you the way the power of blast are determined now one of my blast could deal a lot of damage since my pl will prob be higher then your toughness stat is individually.

No it isn't My tou is 13K

But anyways... *shrugs* I dunno what to say really. I don't want more math in the battles. That I do know.

This post has been edited by Pan on Nov 2 2009, 11:21 AM

Well it's not more math. It's easier math to be exact. Instead of using Power Level to determine the power of a ki blast you use ki to determine it. To accurately figure out how much damage is done and whether or not a person can dodge the attack you compare the result with the person's speed or toughness. Now people won't have to do a wack rp like teleporting with kamehameha in hand.

Hey forgive me for double posting but I figured it out. I know how to do effective damage calculation. I'll explain. Let's say combatant number 1's PL is 75,000 here is his stats:

PL: 80,000
Ki: 40,000
Str: 7,000
Spd: 11,000
Tou: 11,000
Sta: 9,000
Vit: 13,000

And his opponent's stats are:

PL: 90,000
KI: 45,000
Str: 13,000
Spd: 11,000
Tou: 11,250
Sta: 8,250
Vit: 12,500

Notice that Player 2 hasn't conditioned himself as much hence the low stamina. Here are the damage modifiers for a quick attack (0.01%) and a special attack (0.03). Player 1 attacks player two with a physical combo containing 2 quick attacks:

7,500 x 0.01% = 75 x 2 = 150 / 4 = 37.5 (Round off) [38]

This means Player 2's stamina will be:

8,250 - 38 = 8212

Now Player 2 goes on to use the technique Masenko. Remember it will work like this. If your ki is 20,000 and you used 50% of it leaving you with 10,000 you will have to calculate the damage of your advanced attack with the latter. Now to go on with the example:

45,000 x (14% + 35%) = 22,050

That is the power of the attack. Here is where it gets interesting. Look at player 1's options now. Dodge it using zanzoken and good rp'ing or normal rp'ing if his speed can get over 22,050. This will allow him to take no damage at all. However, if Player one does a good rp and dodges with 20,000 speed he is still damage by how close it passed him. Now if Player 1 will not dodge here is his other option block or take the hit. Block will allow the player to receive the same amount of damage as taking the hit -25%. Here is how it works to calculate damage:

22,050 - 10,000 (P1 Tou) = 12,050 / 2 = 6,025 / 4 = 1,506.25 [1,506]

13,000 (P1 Vit) - 1,506 = 11,494

That attack took away about 12% of P1 life. Now to go on to the stamina fatigue of P2:

22,050 - 8,250 (P2 Sta) = 13,800 / 2 = 6,900 / 4 = 1,750

8,250 - 1,750 = 6,500

That attack took away 22% of P2's stamina. There it is folks. The perfect way to calculate damage and fatigue. Since P2's stamina is so low doing an attack like that fatigues him more. If he concentrated some on his stamina he would be able to do more attacks like that per battle.

I'M LOOKING FOR 2 PEOPLE WHO HAS AT LEAST 3 ADVANCED MOVES AND 1 FINISHER TO DO A BATTLE WHERE I'LL REF ACCORDING TO THIS SYSTEM. THAT WAY I CAN SHOW RAZAK THE EFFECTIVENESS OF IT.

Congratulations, Goku this actually looks to be quite interesting. I personally would like to be the first to volunteer for this little experiment. Future Gohan and I should be starting a battle this week, Tapion may join as well but that has yet to be determined.

My apologies, Piccolo Daimao but FG and I may no longer require your services. If Goku will have it and everyone involved with this battle approves, including yourself as well, you could join as a second ref.