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 Pre-Game Flaws, We knew it'd come eventually.
Queen Asshat
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 04:14 AM


THE ASSHAT QUEEN!


Group: Guide Moderator
Posts: 277
Member No.: 66
Joined: 5-October 05



So, we’re well into pre-game, we’ve got fights, we’ve got plots developing, and our characters, and everything is all rainbows and butterflies. However there is one thing that is bothering me, pre-game has about as much flaws in it as Catholic Doctrine (OH BA DUM CHA!), now I know what you’re thinking “Chad, that’s crazy talk!”, but I tell you its all true.

So, what can be wrong with the Pre-Game we all know and love? Well for one did you know Pre-Game has absolutely no recorded continuity with v1? Seriously, I mean most of us realize that it’s placed sometime either during or after v1 (another problem, if v1 was over everyone would be talking about the winner, in fact the SOTF presence was made much more known in the IP thread than it is in v2, meaning that aside from Burton Harris, nobody cares about v1), but it being placed there is only based on implication, for all we know this could be one of the SOTF’s before Sidney Morvans time, so we know…basically nothing of what’s going on in Pre-game…now that my friends is only the beginning of the flaws in Pre-Game.

So, we got Billy and Billy creates this character whom he absolutely falls in love with, so he plans out this big epic story, it has dinosaurs, pirate and ninja battles, and fucking lasers, however when it comes down to it Billy is reluctant to let his character die, “Well he’s my flagship and I just can’t…”, well Billy, you’re over hyping your character that your practically have your nose shoved way up his ass that your eye lashes could check for prostate cancer, your character is not more important than anyone else’s, you put to much focus on his story and not enough on him being a character, I say fuck planned storylines, let’s just fucking RP and have the chips fly where they may.

Now, you may be thinking, “What relevance does this have for the Pre-Game.”, well in Pre-Game we basically have fifty billion characters each with their own plot that is “OMFG ESSENTIAL TO HIS FUCKING CHARACTER!!!1!!!!1ELEVEN!!!”,and mind you these events are all staged, so there is no reaction needed to it, “Oh I see, that guy is totally staring at her breasts and talking about killing her, OMFG I wonder if that means he’s going to rape and kill her on the island?!”, we don’t think like that and we shouldn’t be having our plots trying to cock slap each other for importance, at the end of the day Pre-Games main purpose is to develop characters, not tell their story…focus on Rping him/her, not…well just eating shit.

Another thing that pisses me off is the “Looking for…” topics, I mean seriously, no one cares about your character at this point, he’s a fucking profile, how about go and having him talk to the other characters, if they want to bully him they will, if they want to shove their dicks into the bowels of their ass…guess what, they eventually will, and most of all if they want to befriend you…they will.

So, here we have Pre-Game, no continuity, plots that are breeding stupidity, and it’s actually hurting character development (since there is none…it’s just a bunch of staged events fighting for importance…no development there), so tell me in your honest opinion what use is Pre-Game? It’s a failed experiment, it’s tedious to post in, and monotonous to read, so why are we doing this? Why are we posting in it so much, just to eat RP shit?

Let’s discuss the problems that Pre-Game has and maybe you guys can endeavor to enlighten a senile old fool on his opinion of Pre-Game.
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d0ddi0slave
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 04:21 AM


Such a shame that I didn't know by now


Group: 20
Posts: 1,316
Member No.: 29
Joined: 2-July 05



i <3 burton

Okay, what I really mean is this: Slacker raises some good points, but I know that there are people far more passionate about pre-game than I am right now. While it IS my job to ensure that pre-game goes smoothly and whatnot, I do want to encourage conversation on the issue. I have my own qualms with it, but I think that there are things that we could all do in order to improve pre-game.

So please, discuss. :)

This post has been edited by d0ddi0slave on Aug 19 2006, 04:24 AM
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Kris
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 05:12 AM


Dance Water Dance!


Group: Members
Posts: 222
Member No.: 107
Joined: 26-March 06



I guess I'll be the first to display my opinions. To eat me alive!!!

Well I think pre-game is something to do as the end game goes on. Because everyone is so anxious for v2 they have nothing else to do. Theirs nothing to do cause the endgame is going on.

Also the pre-game helps get used to rp as the characters your going to use in v2. And what past events you can refer to while on the island. I mean if we was let the chips fall where they want it'd be difficult because people will start saying "thats not fair you can't do that" and blah blah blah.

Thats my two cents anyways.
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Queen Asshat
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 05:25 AM


THE ASSHAT QUEEN!


Group: Guide Moderator
Posts: 277
Member No.: 66
Joined: 5-October 05



QUOTE (Kris @ Aug 19 2006, 05:12 AM)
I guess I'll be the first to display my opinions. To eat me alive!!!

Well I think pre-game is something to do as the end game goes on. Because everyone is so anxious for v2 they have nothing else to do. Theirs nothing to do cause the endgame is going on.

Also the pre-game helps get used to rp as the characters your going to use in v2. And what past events you can refer to while on the island. I mean if we was let the chips fall where they want it'd be difficult because people will start saying "thats not fair you can't do that" and blah blah blah.

Thats my two cents anyways.

So, what you’re suggesting is that the Pre-Game is just, a time waster till v2?, letting the chip falls where they may however is very different from God-moding, it’s simply improvising, it allows you to relate to your character at a more deeper level, like your character these things are not things that you knew where going to happen, they’re just happening in rapid succession, you have to think things out, much like your characters inner monologue will have them doing, it increases realism.

There is a difference between letting the chips fall where they may and god-moding, I fail to see how that would create a problem? Can you elaborate on why anyone would say “That’s not fair you can’t do that.”?
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d0ddi0slave
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 05:26 AM


Such a shame that I didn't know by now


Group: 20
Posts: 1,316
Member No.: 29
Joined: 2-July 05



I think I'm going to point something out that REALLY needs to be pointed out - and as such pin this thread, because it's important.

The characters that are being RPed in pre-game are:

a) Not necessarily going to be in v2.
B) Are not necessarily all going to be approved for v2.
c) All works in progress.
d) Not at their final stage.

I'd like to direct everyone to point B. It's bolded, and stuff.

A lot of the characters in pre-game need work - some a little, some a lot. Pre-game is relatively unmoderated, and is mainly a place to build preexisting relationships and your base RPing skills before v2. Once the OFFICIAL v2 applications come out - we're not going to go easy on you all. Some characters are great the way they are, and as I mentioned, some need work.

I just want everyone to keep that in mind.
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Aphrodite.
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 03:02 PM


Prettyful Princess of the Male Variety/ Aspiring Graphic Maker


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Member No.: 143
Joined: 4-July 06



Teehee. Me again. Going along with this, I'd like to say a few things.

Like, you say that there's god-moding going on? Well, please enlighten us on who's doing it. If I'm doing it, don't hesitate to tell me how I can NOT do it. I'm still learning everything about roleplaying, and the pregame is a great way for me to both understand the characters I have, and make plans for the future, which in turn will help me on the island. Another thing that bothers me is that I posted twice under the Everyone's a Critic thread and didn't get one response.

I also noticed that everyone does have their individual homelives and plotlines. Well, of course they do. This is the pregame, so why wouldn't there be a plotline for every character? If you think about it, we all have our own lives. But if we were put on an island and forced to kill each other, those lives would matter very little, since everything would revolve around the game. So we can have our own stories and "Oh God! I've been raped!" moments in pregame, but it doesn't necessarily mean we won't conform to v2's storyline.
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laZardo
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 03:46 PM


Unregistered









Most of all I'd like to know how even the most basic posts are able to fill the damn screen like they do in-game. What's the scoop on that?
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Queen Asshat
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 05:30 PM


THE ASSHAT QUEEN!


Group: Guide Moderator
Posts: 277
Member No.: 66
Joined: 5-October 05



QUOTE
I mean if we was let the chips fall where they want it'd be difficult because people will start saying "thats not fair you can't do that" and blah blah blah.


QUOTE
letting the chip falls where they may however is very different from God-moding, it’s simply improvising, it


Please try to read the entire post before you try to refute something in a debate, it is simple debate etiquitte.

To be edited soon with my response to the rest of your post.
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Megami
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 05:38 PM


Princess of Highland


Group: Admin
Posts: 647
Member No.: 71
Joined: 26-October 05



Well, I was asked to comment last night, but it was, you know, 2 o'clock in the morning, and frankly, I wasn't up for it. :P So of course, now that Meg's awake and functioning properly, she has to throw her two cents in as well. So... here we go.

Characters overlooking major plotlines. The most prominent example of this involved the characters at Hobbsborough High School completely disregarding the fact that the school was under lockdown and that one of their fellow students had died. Whether you liked a person or not, if you were in the same class as someone, you're bound to feel SOMETHING when a girl DIES on school campus. Even if it's happiness. The problem with this thread was that you had new characters coming in and completely disregarding the previous story to introduce their character.

It's a newb mistake, and it happens, especially when you aren't used to the RPing world. I can't stress this enough though, if you're entering a new topic, you need to read the thread, or at least skim it over. I know that some threads are unbearably long to read (off the top of my head, "Starting Point for B#54" in V1 is up to like 25 pages) and oftentimes, what's happening at the beginning of the thread has little to no relevance to what's going on now. I know that personally, I try to recap events in some of my posts for people who are just coming in, but it doesn't do any good if they're completely disregarding events.

I'm not saying that you have to introduce your character as "Jade looked on, listening intently as John talked to Becky alone in the hallway. She heard their entire conversation and, after a short while, decided that perhaps she would join them. She tentatively walked up to the duo, making sure to give them their personal space just in case. John and Becky seemed to ignore her, as they were quite engaged in their private conversation, so Jade turned around and walked off in an effort not to disturb them." It's good to respect people's plotlines, but minor ones involving a private conversation or the like warrant a lot less attention than major ones that have the entire school system in a chokehold.

Establishment of characters beyond their original element. Okay, so you create this profile about this character who is (example) coming to terms with his sexuality. You tell us about how he's embarrassed that he might be gay, you tell us about his parents' accepting (or not-so accepting) attitude toward him, you tell us about the struggles he entails because of this minute little detail in his life. Your first post establishes him as being a gay character at a young age. Now tell me something I don't know.

"Gay" is a characteristic, just like having brown hair or blue eyes. It's nothing more than sexual orientation. (By the way, I used that as an example because of the abundance of homosexual characters we have this round.) Did you know that to me, just about every gay character seems like a clone of one another with just subtle little differences? It's not just the homosexual characters, but a LOT of people need to work on expanding their character beyond their original concept. Guys, this is pre-game. Profiles aren't set in stone. You can add to them, detract from them, change them drastically.

So do it. There's nothing wrong with making your character more well-rounded and realistic. At all. Pre-game was set up in the hopes of characters finding the niches that work best for them before the real game starts. You can't find your niche or expand on your character if you never take that character out of a certain element. I'll use my Ali Grayston character as an example, because it doesn't bother me. Ali started out as a stereotype. She was the Queen Bee, uber-bitch girl from high school that everyone secretly hated... pretty much. Then I took her, and through a planned storyline, SLACKER, I expanded on her character to show her insecurities, a naive side, etc. Now, she's no longer a clone from the Queen Bee stereotype.

Critism and Critiquing. Obviously, I think this is a good idea. That's pretty apparent in the fact that I'm the one who started the original "Initial Impressions" thread. Obviously it's caught on, enough so that it warranted another thread devoted to it being created. It's a great way to get opinions on your characters and perhaps help to elaborate on your character a bit. After all, other people often see things in the profile that never crossed your mind. Maybe they're asking you to elaborate on a minute detail, but any sort of elaboration helps.

Anyway, here's my qualm with the critism threads. "Omigod, Ashley is the best character EVER!" is not helping anybody in any way. It's a temporary ego-boost for the handler, yes. However, not providing any sort of negative criticism toward a character doesn't help the writer to improve them. If you honestly think a character is absolutely perfect the way they are and doesn't need to be improved in any way, shape, or form, then I truly commend the author of that biography, because even the SOTF "veterans" have unperfected characters.

It's good to tell people that you enjoy their characters. It makes them feel good about themselves as a writer and it makes them feel like they're doing something right. When someone completely attacks your character for the "complete and total failure" that it is, it makes you feel discouraged and frustrated. However, when all they do is provide positive feedback, it doesn't help the writer to know what needs improved or elaborated upon. Lots of people don't want to do this because they're worried about stepping on people's toes or insulting them. Just make sure you do it in moderation and don't attack a character without remorse. Most of the people on this site are very receptive to others' ideas and are willing to listen to what you have to say.

Plothole and Continuity Errors. Pretty sure there wasn't another SOTF before Sydney Morvran's time. You know, it being dubbed "Version 0" by the administrator herself and whatnot. Pretty sure Kai's not gonna throw us into Version -1, you know? It's pretty much been established that Version 2 takes place AFTER Version 1. I just had to address that, because it was a comment Slacker made in his post. What we don't know is how far beyond the original V2 takes place. We've got people saying that V1 is over, people saying that V2 is still going on, etc.

Either way, the reason that V1 isn't being mentioned much (at least in my own opinion) is that people don't want to mess with facts that are vague or stuff that we have no knowledge of whatsoever. I don't blame you all for not mentioning it, and I don't do it either, purely because the concept of a television show really shouldn't rule over every aspect of our characters' lives. I've mentioned it once or twice being on television and whatnot, but really, you don't know much about what's going on, NOR do you know much about how it's impacting America. We've been through worse tragedies and it hasn't shaken this country.

Maybe it isn't as big a deal in the States as Danya makes it out to be. For all we know, he could've just been saying the things he did to get under the skin of the kids on the island. Fact is, we just don't know. Obviously, it was a concern of the American government, HOWEVER, for those of you who live in the States, you know all too well that our government likes to "overlook" things and for all we know, they could be playing the game off as being some screwed up new version of "Survivor" in the States. We don't know. Besides, the abductions mostly happened in New York. Unless your character is a relative or someone who was abducted, it's not really going to affect you much.

The "Looking for..." topics. I'm simply referring to this because it was mentioned by Slacker. I have no problem whatsoever with the "Searching for..." topics. Obviously, neither does Kai, that's why we have a FORUM dedicated to them. There's nothing wrong with looking for characters to be your friends/enemies/love interests/whatever. Common sense will tell you that I PM'd Riser and went "I've got this idea for a storyline with Ali, would you be interested?" The only thing that I have a problem with is the way people go about it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If your character attends the same school as the character they're forming a relationship with, odds are, they knew them outside the context of the pre-game roleplay. So act like it. You don't just randomly meet someone and out of the blue decide that they're going to be your mortal enemy or true love. I see this more with the new people than with the "seasoned" roleplayers, so to speak. Most of the people who've roleplayed here longer go out of their way to establish a backstory between their characters, and that's the key difference between making your character more realistic or completely campy.

Word of advice to you all, and I know I'm repeating myself from my speech in another topic regarding this: PM the handlers you're considering forming relationships with. Plan out the story beyond the context of pre-game. Your character growing up with someone is a lot different than them meeting said person out of the blue and automatically hating their guts. Minor details like that make a lot of difference, and when you plan things out, it gives your character a more realistic feel, and it also gives you more to work with when you're posting as said character.

Tolerance. This is directed toward mostly the "veteran" or "seasoned" roleplayers from SOTF's first round. This came up in last night's chat, and I feel the need to address it once again on the boards. You all have to learn to be tolerant of new roleplayers. Yes, SOTF is geared toward an intermediate to advanced level of roleplayer, but we welcome newcomers with open arms, and if you can't accept that, then maybe this site isn't for you. If you really can't stand the way someone is roleplaying, PM them and tell them... POLITELY.

I've yet to meet a roleplayer on this board who gets anal-retentive when confronted about an aspect of their roleplaying that isn't quite up to par. Most of the people here who are new to RPing in general would LIKE you to point out what they're doing wrong so that they can fix it. I know that both Ebony and I, and I'm sure many of the other mods/admins/vets here, have discussed character aspects with our newcomers via PM or IM, and it's greatly benefited some of them. Lots of times, people don't realize that they're doing something until someone else points it out (mind-reading, godmodding, etc.)

You have to be tolerant of new people coming into the RP, because they're still learning. You know guys, those of you who are just coming into this and can't summon up the writing power to write a 6 page post, that's FINE. I've been there. We've ALL been there. Nobody is born an incredible writer, and we all had to practice to find our niche. None of us are perfect, and none of us will ever be. I'd like to think of SOTF as an open and friendly environment that allows us to grow and learn as writers. Look at people like Slayer and d0ddi0slave. Read their very first posts. Now look at where they are now.

Riserugu, LadyMakaze, Lien, myself, the people who've improved and grown as writers on this site are countless. You can't all of a sudden preach intolerance of new people here, because every single one of us was new once. Pre-game was created in the hopes of new people being able to come in and get a feel for the site, the style of roleplaying, and their characters BEFORE the game. It's supposed to be a place for us to goof around, spin wild ideas, have random encounters, run goofy ideas, etc. I mean, one conversation with a character before the game could mean the difference between them befriending you or blasting you in the face with a shotgun on the island.

Telling their story. You know Slack, I'm just gonna have to blast you in the face about this one. Telling a character's story IS establishing their character. I'd love for you to tell me how people forming plotlines and storylines equates to them NOT establishing their character. If you tell me that my posts with (example) Eric Silvstedt DON'T establish that he has a short fuse, anger management issues, internal issues stemming from the fact that he's basically been forced into the role of "man of the house", etc., then personally hun, I'm gonna take a lot of offense to that.

Some people take a bit longer to establish their characters and add to them than others, and there's nothing wrong with that. We know that Andi Ayala is homosexual. We know that his father has a disorder and that Andi has to take care of him. We know that he and Siouxie are close. We know that he has a crush on Peter. Sure, they're just details, but they're establishing Andi as a person.

And frankly, hun, if you're going to say that, I could argue that you've established next to nothing with yours. I could also argue that since you currently are not participating in pre-game, that it's hypocritical of you to judge everyone and everything based purely on speculation alone and not participation. Your opinion varies greatly from the people who are actually involved. Maybe you think some of the storylines are, for lack of a better word, boring. You may think that, but you have to understand that boring or not, it's helping people establish and improve themselves.

In conclusion, you're contradicting yourself by even making that remark.

Overall/Conclusions. Do I think the V2 pre-game needs work? Absolutely. Do I think it's this humongous failed experiment that should be disguarded in the garbage can like last week's inactives? Absolutely not. I do agree that we've got pre-game biographies that aren't up to par, but as Adam said, none of the characters in pre-game are complete. They're all works-in-progress, and they're all being expanded upon by their handlers. Lots of handlers actively update their character profiles to coincide with information that they've provided in their posts (I doubled the size of Ali's bio the other day, for example).

If you honestly want to know what I think should be done about the so-called "bad" profiles, I'll tell you. I think that openly criticising characters is good, and it's a start. I also think that the moderators and the site administrators should take the time and make an effort to work with new members whose character bios aren't up to par, because ultimately, we're the ones who decide who's fit for approval and who isn't. You know, you talk about how horrible some of the profiles are and whatnot. Thing is, if you don't tell people that their character is lacking, most of the time, they don't realize it.

I think that instead of criticising pre-game for all its flaws, you need to take the time to look at the good that's come out of it as well. Yes, it has its problems. V1 had its problems. V2's going to have its problems too. You can't perfect a roleplaying site. 'Course, you can always try to improve it, so why don't you try providing some constructive criticism and offering up some ideas about what could be done to restore this "disaster that is pre-game" instead of just pointing out all the things that are wrong with it?

You asked for my opinion pumpkin, so there it is. Feel free to rip it apart, I love a good debate.
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Cycokiller
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 06:34 PM


Playing


Group: Members
Posts: 311
Member No.: 94
Joined: 4-March 06



*sniff*





I smell a rebuttal.
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Kid
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 07:07 PM


Someone's Been Stealing My Teddy Grams...


Group: Members
Posts: 41
Member No.: 119
Joined: 6-May 06



Yay! This really helped me think about all aspects. I would just like to say that I'm new here to the SOTF boards and when I first started, I felt like I was just kind of dumped on the ground. It's not that people here aren't friendly, it's just that I felt kind of helpless. So I'm glad that the pre-game finally started because now I feel like I'm finally getting the way that this RP works and who the people are.
I'm not new to RPing, but I am new to this system and being able to really expand my characters. I usually roleplayed with newer roleplayers and thus I kind of felt like my posts had to be small so they didn't feel overwhelmed. Here, I'm slowly easing back into writing at my own pace and being able to tone my characters to my liking. I do like the criticism thread. In fact, I was going to use it soon because I really want to tune up my characters.
And for the "looking for" threads, I think it's a good idea. I feel that if you just start the game off with a profile that says your a loner, you're gonna feel like you have to be a loner. I'd rather be able to connect with someone through characters so I don't feel like that "loner".
Sorry if this kind of doesn't make sense, I just woke up so I'm kind of like... "Erghhhh.... screen... food... ugh..." :lol:
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d0ddi0slave
Posted: Aug 19 2006, 10:49 PM


Such a shame that I didn't know by now


Group: 20
Posts: 1,316
Member No.: 29
Joined: 2-July 05



I must interject here:

DO NOT feel that your posts have to be a million words long. PLEASE don't feel that's what we're looking for, because it isn't.

Quality over quantity, folks. If your quality post ends up being 5000 words (like mine seem to be, sigh) then so be it. If it ends up being 250, then...*shrug* whichever does the trick.
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Queen Asshat
Posted: Aug 20 2006, 01:15 AM


THE ASSHAT QUEEN!


Group: Guide Moderator
Posts: 277
Member No.: 66
Joined: 5-October 05



Okay, guys, you know what I’m not going to sit here and give you bullshit responses and tell you what we should be trying to do to change Pre-Game, in fact I’ll fucking show you, when you’ve a goal in mind it’s so much easier, example when I first joined SOTF my first real thread that I joined was one with Meg, Riser, Nordy, and Guitar Jack, now with all those wondrous Rpers, a standard was shown to me and I subconsciously tried to reach that standard, I then moved my character to another thread and you could see visibly the sharp change that had happened with him, in Pre-Game we don’t have the same kind of thought going into our posts, our characters are bullshitting so we’re bullshitting as well, but you know what, I still read Pre-Game, I don’t want to be ignorant or any of that shit, so I came across a post that exemplifies what we should all be working towards in Pre-Game, I doubt any of us would reach the level of pure development in this post, but a perfect example of what to do is right here

Now, I don’t expect any of us to reach the level of pure unaldurated genius that our very own Adam Dodd displays in that post (fuck even I am not at that level), but it’s something we should work towards.

When that becomes our general goal, we all go for more posts that are detailed, we go deeper into our characters minds, the character becomes more easy to understand, easily to relate to, would we’ve been able to get Pants as much as we did in that thread if he just said, “fuck you!” and punched that guy in the face? Of course not and as we separate from that general ideal we’ll undoubtly have more than five compelling characters and countless shitty characters, we’ll avoid having a main character in SOTF.

And those are all flaws that we had in v1, and pre-game is on the road to becoming that, hopefully all who’ve read this post will attempt to try and reach the level of majesty Dodd had in that post, I know I certainly will continue to strive for Meg’s, Riser’s, Nordy’s, Guitar Jack’s, and now Dodd’s level of Rping, because I tell you now that the Rping role models you adopt now will stay with you for a very long time.

I also understand that you guys might be trying your fucking hardest, but effort is only good for fucking post cards, we need improvement, and striving to achieve a level of awesomeness is the only way we’ll do it.

Some people say that instead of complaining I should simply critique all of you and tell you what you did wrong along with positive reinforcement and all that psychological politically correct bullshit, but I won’t because at the end of the day I got faith that you guys aren’t as fucking stupid as your pre-game posts make the vets think, you guys aren’t so stupid that you require me to hold your hand and tell you what’s fucking wrong with your character.

And that’s the point I’m trying to make.
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d0ddi0slave
Posted: Aug 20 2006, 01:19 AM


Such a shame that I didn't know by now


Group: 20
Posts: 1,316
Member No.: 29
Joined: 2-July 05



*clapclap*

yay i winned
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Cycokiller
Posted: Aug 20 2006, 03:01 AM


Playing


Group: Members
Posts: 311
Member No.: 94
Joined: 4-March 06



I think instead of complaining you should shut the fuck up. I never said anything about critiques.
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