Title: TheAdmiral's Pokémon Questions Topic
TheAdmiral - July 11, 2008 01:17 PM (GMT)
When should I let it evolve? Raichu doesn't learn any new moves, but it does have far better stats, so when should I let it evolve?
The Hivemind - July 11, 2008 01:52 PM (GMT)
What generation are we talking about?
Flailing Axes - July 11, 2008 03:30 PM (GMT)
I never evolve mine, too traditional.
I would probably evolve it after learning Slam, as you ahve all the faster moves from Pikachu, and can always give Raichu thunderbolt at a later date via TM.
Zog the Stout - July 11, 2008 04:11 PM (GMT)
Body Slam via TM or Breeding
Thunderbolt at Lv26
Thunder Wave at Lv10
And something else random, whatever takes your fancy. It should be via TM, at any rate.
Flailing Axes - July 11, 2008 04:17 PM (GMT)
? I thought Raichu learned Thunderbolt upon evolving?
Wizwum - July 11, 2008 05:01 PM (GMT)
As Hivey asked, it all depends on the Generation.
Slam is a crap move anyway, so you wouldn't waste a slot bothering to learn it.
RB: Agility is a good move, and especially good on Pikachu/Raichu for ensuring the first turn, so I'd say Lvl.33. Thunderbolt by TM, obviously.
Y: Again, 33. Light Screen is useful, but Pikachu and Raichu are sweeper pokes, so wouldn't want a defensive move like that. Agility again is preferable.
GSC/RSE/FRLG: Yet again, 33. Thunder is only useful on a Rain Dancing team.
DP: Personally, 34. Discharge is good as it hits both foes, but that means Power is halved when that occurs, and double battles are rare in competitive. I prefer Thunderbolt. Discharge also has a greater para-chance (30% as opposed to 9.8%), and can be used in some strategic battling (Volt Absorb on a partner, etc), so it is personal preference really. If you're just into raw power though, go for Thunderbolt. But, as before, Agility is nice. Unless, of course, you're Choice Scarfing, or you want Nasty Plot (from a Pichu) instead. Two stats boost moves are only really viable on a Baton Passer, so its a toss up between the two in most instances. Plus, Pikachu/Raichu can learn some nice moves, both Physical and Special, making it a viable mixed sweeper.
As to the role it plays, there's a lot of choice. You can keep it as a Pikachu and give it the Light Ball (2x Atk and Sp.Atk), but that leaves it lacking in defensive stats. It also removes any option of Choice Banding, or Leftovers, or whatever you want. Either way, it's a sweeper, and if it has Nasty Plot, it's a special one. I disagree with Zog on Thunderwave. Thunderwave is a move for Stallers, Annoyers, or even ParaFlinch sweepers, but not for a regular sweeper. Boosting your own stats is more important than lowering your foes (and a sweeper should be one or two hit KOing most things anyway, as long as you predict well, making Thunderwave a waste of a turn and a waste of a slot.) Choice Specs Raichu wants Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, Focus Blast and a good typed Hidden Power (or Surf if you can get it), whilst a Nasty Plotting Raichu wants to replace one of those with Nasty Plot. Generic Special Sweeper might want Agility in there, and a Mixed Sweeper could have Volt Tackle, Return and/or Brick Break. Physical Sweeper would want Agility, possibly, and said Physical moves .maybe ThunderPunch instead of Volt Tackle (via breeding), and even Dig or Iron Tail if you are so inclined (though Dig is easy to force a miss.)
Sorry, I rambled.
And no, Flaxes, Raichu doesn't learn Thunderbolt upon evolving. No Pokemon learns a move due to evolution. It may very well learn a move at the same level it first evolves (eg. Gyarados, Metapod), but no Pokemon learns a move because it just evolved. They are always level specific. When it says 'Start', it means the Pokemon can't learn it by levelling up normally, but if you go to the Move Relearner, it will be an option for the Pokemon.
HLY - July 11, 2008 05:54 PM (GMT)
I'd say when it leart agility, as by then it'd already know thunderbolt.
alternatively, never, teach it volt tackle and leave it as a pikachu with the light orb, it's power is greater than a Richus, and it should be fast enough to deliver a deadly attack.
TheAdmiral - July 12, 2008 12:53 PM (GMT)
Diamond. It is now level 29. It knows Thunder bolt, Slam, Quick Attack and Shock Wave.
The thing is, I also have a Luxray (31) and I want them to be different in use. I figured Luxray might be a good mixed sweeper, whilst Pikachu/Raichu could be a pure special sweeper.
BTW, I'm playing the game so that I want to catch every single pokémon I can catch so far and train them to a certain level. At each Gym, this level is increased by 5. So I took the first gym with only level 5 Pokémon, second with only level 10 Pokémon etc. Also I will only ever take 3 Pokémon with me to a Gym. I currently have six badges, so I can use Pokémon of up to level 35.
Wizwum - July 12, 2008 01:49 PM (GMT)
That is mighty impresive, what you're doing.
Luxray is better as a Physical sweeper than as a mixed one. It hasn't got the best of movepools, but its usable, so I'd keep it Physical. Chances are, you won't get a Light Ball (5% chance of getting one on a wild Pikachu), so evolving it is probably the best choice, and, seeing as it doesn't have Nasty Plot (as it was caught as a Pikachu), I'd give it Agility. In which case, get it to level 34, and then evolve it. You'll want Thunderbolt, Agility, Grass Knot and, most likely, Focus Blast, as the Chus don't have access to a huge amount of Special moves. If not Focus Blast (I must admit, its not my favourite move in the world...), go for Brick Break or Iron Tail if you have the TMs yet, or if you can get a good Hidden Power on it (which'll be nigh impossible to calculate - just try it and see), go with that.
TheAdmiral - July 13, 2008 06:37 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Wizwum @ Jul 12 2008, 01:49 PM)|
| That is mighty impresive, what you're doing. |
So far it hasn't been that tough, altough I have to admit Byron was close, I had 10 HP left on Gyarados, which was my last Pokémon. My team was: Prinplup, Gyarados and Kadabra, all level 30. I would have put a decent batrep up if I had remembered it.
|Luxray is better as a Physical sweeper than as a mixed one. It hasn't got the best of movepools, but its usable, so I'd keep it Physical. Chances are, you won't get a Light Ball (5% chance of getting one on a wild Pikachu), so evolving it is probably the best choice, and, seeing as it doesn't have Nasty Plot (as it was caught as a Pikachu), I'd give it Agility. In which case, get it to level 34, and then evolve it. You'll want Thunderbolt, Agility, Grass Knot and, most likely, Focus Blast, as the Chus don't have access to a huge amount of Special moves. If not Focus Blast (I must admit, its not my favourite move in the world...), go for Brick Break or Iron Tail if you have the TMs yet, or if you can get a good Hidden Power on it (which'll be nigh impossible to calculate - just try it and see), go with that.|
I'll go with the Thunderbolt, Agility, Grass Knot and Focus Blast combo. Will this need any changes as Chu levels up I wonder, like swapping Thunderbolt for Thunder or perhaps Hyperbeam?
HLY - July 13, 2008 08:49 PM (GMT)
you...need...thunderbolt, and the hyper moves (beam and impact) re only for if the pokemon can take n attack afterwards, which the chu's can't, so I'd say that move set was the best you could have for a rai chu
Zog the Stout - July 13, 2008 09:15 PM (GMT)
Simple premise of Pokemon for ya ;)
Flamethrower > Fire Blast
Ice Beam > Blizzard
Thunderbolt > Thunder
Surf > Hydro Pump
Why? Easy, because the 'Beams' all have Base Power 90, but Accuracy 100, while the 'Blasts' have Base Power 120, but Accuracy 75.
Meaning over 4 rounds, both will do 360 Base Damage;
90x4 = 360
120x3 = 360 plus one miss.
So they're equal, right? Wrong.
1) What if you don't need full 360 Power over 4 rounds? What if you only need, say, 270 power? Fine if the 'Blast' misses on the 4th round you never have, but if it misses earlier, you delay the battle by an unneccesary round, and take an extra hit
2) You get the same BASE Power, but the 'Beams' do one more hit, on average, per 4 uses. That means one extra chance for a Critical Hit, one extra chance for a Status effect, one extra addition of bonuses for Sp.Attk, one extra addition of bonuses for held items (etc, etc.)
3) Same Base Power done per 4 turns, on average, right? Then why go for a 5pp move that you'll only get one set of 4 uses from, when you can get a 15pp move that you'll get nearly 4 from (or 10pp and 3 uses in the case of Ice Beam)
As for Hyper Beam/Giga Impact, don't see it as Base Power 150, see it as Base Power 75. Because unless you OHKO the opponent, thats what it ends up being, as you sit around looking pretty for a turn. If you want a physical attack, Body Slam is the way to go. If you want Special, thats what Thunderbolt is for :)
TheAdmiral - July 14, 2008 11:53 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Zog the Stout @ Jul 13 2008, 09:15 PM)|
| As for Hyper Beam/Giga Impact, don't see it as Base Power 150, see it as Base Power 75. Because unless you OHKO the opponent, thats what it ends up being, as you sit around looking pretty for a turn. |
Unless you put the opponent to sleep or something similar.
My old attack order with Venusaur:
repeat when neccisary.. ^_^
Cyber_Wulf - July 14, 2008 10:12 PM (GMT)
i think ive been out of the poke-loop for too long. however i dont have or plan to get a DS so i guess my poke-adventures have to stay unstarted.
all the new pokemon and moves seem to confuse me anyway. originals were the best.
getting back to topic. raichu is my fave pokemon but i dnt remember any specifics about move learning levels etc. onlt that a thunderstone is needed to evolve the bugger.
but seriously is someone saying that raichu doesnt learn thunderbolt by himself??? that does sounds silly.
Flailing Axes - July 15, 2008 07:10 AM (GMT)
If you have Thunderwave, then Hyper Beam and Giga Impact are a rather nice combination.
HLY - July 15, 2008 09:51 AM (GMT)
Raichu dosen't lean any movs by himself, I know it's silly but thats how it it. He only leanrs moves from TMs or the ones he had as pikachu
@flaxes. Why,. for a 25% chance of them missing a turn, we make sure we miss one using Giga impact. Look, thunder bolt (with STAB) is almost as strong, and since we can use it two turns in a row, it's better
Zog the Stout - July 15, 2008 02:08 PM (GMT)
Over two turns, Thunderbolt will deal damage of Base Power 270, with 100% Accuracy.
Far better than Hyper Beam's 150 with 90% Accuracy each turn (so a total chance to miss at least once of 20%)
TheAdmiral - July 15, 2008 07:28 PM (GMT)
not really, as that would mean that after 9 hits, teh chance of missing is 100%, which is not true.
Either way, you can combine it with an X Accuracy, so to make the chance of missing even less, which means that Hyper Beam is still a very good option. Besides, Hyper Beam is a 1HKO-weapon with a 10% chance of failing, not that bad really.
On a side note, I just beat Gym no.7. My team:
Staraptor Lvl. 36
Medicham Lvl. 37
Kadabra Lvl. 37
Staraptor was major pwnage against Snover and it's evolution. I won by a pretty big margin.
Darmort - July 15, 2008 08:32 PM (GMT)
Hyper Beam *is not* a OHKO. Fissure is OHKO.
There are plenty of Pokemon that can shrug off a Power 150 blast in one turn. It takes tactics to win, not brawn.
Zog the Stout - July 15, 2008 08:56 PM (GMT)
Simple maths, Admiral.
Chance of Hyper Beam missing is 1 in 10. The statistic chance of it missing over 2 uses is the chance of it missing over one doubled, or 2 in 10/1 in 5/20%
HLY - July 15, 2008 09:07 PM (GMT)
yes, it does miss like zog says, it's siple maths
and hyper beam is not a 1hit KO, it's a sucky attack, as if the foe has two pokemon, or if they survive, you've just lost a turn
but still, nice one on the win, though I don't get how you're going to beat the elite four, unless you can beat 6 level 60+ pokemon with only 3 level 45, if you get to the champion
TheAdmiral - July 16, 2008 05:44 PM (GMT)
I'll be using 6 Lvl 45 Pokémon for the Elite Four.
That said, I'll not train them outside of the Elite Four once they are 45+. I reckon they'll all be at least 55 when I get to the last trainer.
And it isn't simple maths.
The chance of missing is always 10%, but that doesn't mean that the chance of missing once in 10 shots is 100%, since there is always the possibility you'll hit as as previous hits/misses do not influence the next shot. I do not know the correct formula, but what you are stating is false anyway.
Zog the Stout - July 16, 2008 06:48 PM (GMT)
When rolling a dice, the chance of getting one of any number when rolling a single dice is 1 in 6, right? And its 1 in 3 when rolling 2, correct?
Same principle. Use one attack, your miss chance is 1 in 10. Use two, and its 1 in 5. It does work exactly as you say, they do mount up - for any individual attack, obviously, the chance of missing is 10%. But for two attacks, the chance of getting at least one miss is doubled, because you have two chances to trigger that 10% miss chance. With two chances, you are twice as likely to trigger it at least once, and thus twice as likely (20%) to get a miss.
Using 3 attacks, it becomes 30%, etc. There is an anomalous mathematical law that states that, no matter what probability defines, the cap remains at 99.9% recurring, because it is obviously never certain that you will miss.
Aside from that, while the chance for any individual attack to miss always remains at 10%, the chance that you will get at least one miss from a number of (Accuracy 90) moves is; Number of Moves x 10%, capping at 99.9% Recurring.
Darmort - July 16, 2008 09:52 PM (GMT)
Guys, stop arguing! Hyperbeam is a crap move anyway! Any decent Wall will have enough HP/Defence/Special Defence to take a Hyperbeam or Giga Impact with ease! A fast status Poké it will take is one damaging status move (burn, poison, + maybe confusion) and you're screwed. You get sleeped and your done for (2-6 turns = sleep's effect length, iirr).
Or any fast sweeper with a ground move...
Or a Rock/Steel Pokémon...
Seriously, relying on Hyperbeam *hitting* and *OHKOing* isn't the way to go.
TheAdmiral - July 17, 2008 12:24 PM (GMT)
Which one of the Lake Trio should I catch?
I'm currently leaning towards Azelf, but I'm not sure really.
Or should I catch a different legendary?
Avaris - July 17, 2008 01:38 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (TheAdmiral @ Jul 17 2008, 01:24 PM)|
Which one of the Lake Trio should I catch?
I'm currently leaning towards Azelf, but I'm not sure really.
Or should I catch a different legendary?
All of them? Seriously, they're not that hard... except Mesprit... stupid thing runs away... encountered it about a day ater and lobbed the Master ball at it...
TheAdmiral - July 17, 2008 01:39 PM (GMT)
Timer Ball or Ultra Ball? Which one works better?
And they don't run away on the first turn do they?
Avaris - July 17, 2008 02:22 PM (GMT)
Only Mesprit, which runs away before you even fight it; the other two are found in their caves all the time.
Judging from Bulbapedia, you'd be wise to use the ultra ball (giving a x2 catch rate) first, then the timer ball later (just as good as an ultra ball for rounds 10-19, progressively better later)
TheAdmiral - July 17, 2008 02:50 PM (GMT)
Just checked Bulbapedia, seems like I'm better off with a Dusk Ball, since they're in a cave and such, which gives it a 4x catch rate.
Darmort - July 17, 2008 04:26 PM (GMT)
A Duskball will only work like that underground. It won't be effective against Mesprit. Best bet is to use Ultra Balls on Mesprit.
TheAdmiral - July 17, 2008 05:23 PM (GMT)
Mean Look + Timer Ball?
I was looking at a Gastly with Mean Look, Hypnosis and Dream Eater to catch it, should do the trick methinks.
For the other two, a Dusk Ball should work.
Wizwum - July 17, 2008 06:29 PM (GMT)
Okay. I really shouldn't have left...
Zog, accuracy uses a much more complex formula, using Pokemon's individual accuracy and evasion stats. Hence why there are '100%' accuracy moves, and 'always hits' moves. You regularly see 100% accuracy moves miss. And also, using percentages like you have is a bad way of doing it, because by that you are stating that if you score 9 hits, you have 99.9% chance of missing with the 10th. Which is clearly not true. Its still a 10% chance of missing. But on a whole range of 10 attacks, probability dictates that roughly one will miss. That doesn't mean its 100% chance that one will miss, or even 99.9% chance that one will miss. Because 10% of 10 things is different to 100% of one. (I understand its confusing, but yeah...)
Dusk Ball will work (4x effectivity) at night too, so always go Mesprit hunting after 8:00pm. Azelf is indeed the best, because sweepers have the most advantages in DP, and Azelf is a sweeper. Mesprit is all round, so sucks, and Uxie is a wall. Azelf can get some mean moves too, so if you intend to use him (he is commonly used on the competitive scene), go for it. And eurgh, Av, you used the MasterBall? Everyone knows the Master Ball is for keeping in your bag and never using. It'd be awesome to catch the legendaries in Pokeballs, just so it looks normal when you send them out (I hate the Dusk Ball's animation) though it is hard enough with really good balls, let alone a simple Pokeball.
Hyper Beam and Giga Impact suck. OHKO moves suck. X-Accuracy sucks (all items like that do. By a lot. Wasting a turn by far (especially if its a Hyper Beam turn, just means you have to wait even longer before getting one off. And remember, even if you OHKO something, you have to recharge next turn. It isn't Gen I anymore)), and you can't use items in multiplayer anyway. And Zog was right in that Thunderbolt > Thunder etc, because they are. More PP, and accuracy is much more important than raw power. In any case, sweepers should be OHKOing other things with Thunderbolts anyway, so swapping to Thunder just reduces PP and accuracy. Thunder only has a place on Rain Dancing teams, Blizzard on hailing teams (which, I might add, aren't fantastic), and SolarBeam on Sunny Day teams. Fire Blast and Hydro Pump should never be used.
EDIT: Mean Look is required for catching roamers, if you aint using the Masterball. Or at least Shadow Tag or Arena Trap. False Swipe is also very handy, as is a sleep move. I like Gastly with Mean Look and Hypnosis, but also remember, whenever you switch, the foe will atempt to flee once again. And switching gets rid of Mean Look. So be careful. If you can switch to an Arena Trapping False Swiper, you're good to go. But only False Swipe when they are on low health.
Speaking of leaving the foe on 1HP, that reminds me how easy Moltres was to catch on LG. I'll say two things: 1) It has Endure. 2) My Steelix has Rock Slide.
TheAdmiral - July 17, 2008 07:17 PM (GMT)
Alright, If I can get a legendary down to 1 HP and Asleep in a dark place the catch rate is just below 24.
Now then there is a formula which I cannot figure out at all.http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Catch_rate
There, I don't get it at all, all I can see is that the catch rate is pretty low anyway. I need to have a good stock of Dusk Balls to catch it.
Wizwum - July 17, 2008 07:40 PM (GMT)
Correct. Lets do worst case scenario. Assuming Azelf has the minimum HP it can have, if its on 1HP and asleep, and you're using a Dusk Ball, you get an 'a' value of 23.88. That gives a b value of 36253(ish.) Therefore the probability of capture is 0.093. Which is about 0.1. Which means you'll need about 10 balls. Which is very much reasonable (I've number crunched before, and got a value of over 50 balls required. Catching things is rarely fun.)
TheAdmiral - July 17, 2008 07:44 PM (GMT)
Just in case I'll take at least 30 Dusk balls, I can't rely on chance..
Luckily only Legendaries have a catch rate of 3.. ^_^
HLY - July 18, 2008 07:27 AM (GMT)
realy wiz, never use the master ball? buit you can get more on DP, just by wining the sweepstakes
I mean my old file, I had both mespirit and cresseila in master balls, i hate chasing them things so much.
Azelf is the best of the lake trio, it's has the best attack stats, and has an attack stat base
PS: for when bataling them. use a dark type mon, it makes life easier when the only move they have tht can hurt you is futre sight (getting hit by an azelf power confusion hurts...)
Avaris - July 18, 2008 09:36 AM (GMT)
|And eurgh, Av, you used the MasterBall? Everyone knows the Master Ball is for keeping in your bag and never using. It'd be awesome to catch the legendaries in Pokeballs, just so it looks normal when you send them out (I hate the Dusk Ball's animation) though it is hard enough with really good balls, let alone a simple Pokeball.|
Hey, I wasn't looking for it, and it was about a day after it actually started wandering. There is no way my team at the time could catch it, as I was struggling with the other two, and I've had enough experience with the retard runners on other games to know this might be my only chance for a LONG time. Its for pokemon like that that you use the Master Ball; ones you really want but weren't prepared for.
Zog the Stout - July 18, 2008 02:35 PM (GMT)
Wiz... I have never in my gaming life seen a 100% Accuracy move miss without either the users accuracy being reduced, or the target's evasion raised by a move/ability.
Thats what I mean. If you factor in reductions in chance to hit, things are different, but even so, Thunderbolt ect are more accurate than Thunder ect.
Wizwum - July 18, 2008 03:30 PM (GMT)
You're telling me you've never seen Thunderbolt miss on its own, with no outside accuracy or evasion modification? Lucky guy... Thunderbolt is still more accurate than Thunder, but even a 100% accuracy move can still miss with no outside influence.
Zog the Stout - July 18, 2008 04:18 PM (GMT)
Really, really not.
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever EVER will a 100 Accuracy Move miss without outside modification.
Take my Pearl team atm.
The featured 100 Accuracy Moves are; Strength, Rock Smash, Vital Throw, Spark, Crunch, Stomp, Ember, Surf, Peck, Flash Cannon, Close Combat and Aerial Ace.
Honest truth, I have 27 Hours of gameplay atm, not one of them has ever missed without the opposing pokemon either raising their evasiveness or reducing my accuracy (except when I was fighting in Fog).
Ditto on Ruby. My Gardevoir and Manectric both have Thunderbolt, my Walrein has Ice Beam, my Salamence Flamethrower. Never ever seen them miss without modification.
I know I should know better than to go up against your poke-knowledge, Wiz, but I'm telling you, you are wrong this time.