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 Amnesty 4 The Perps, in exchange 4 Truth
 
Would you support a program that ensured amnesty for those who participated in the attacks of 911 if they were forthcoming with the absolute Truth of what happened on that day.
Yes [ 15 ]  [45.45%]
No [ 18 ]  [54.55%]
Total Votes: 33
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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 08:06 AM


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Would you support a South African Truth and Reconciliation-style amnesty-for-Truth program?

You'll get the Truth. But many of the perps will face no hard consequences for what they did. This means that though they might be removed from their jobs they will serve no prison time for what they did.

If it will maintain the sovereignty of the Constitutional USG and remove the perps from power and bring down the shadow government and reinstate Constitutional law here, then I support it. And this might work. Otherwise we're looking at open war with either or both Russia and China, complete with nuclear exchanges, defeat, the dissolution of our government, the balkanization of our country, and the rise of the one-world government which will likely be a communist dictatorship.
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jimmyb207
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 08:15 AM


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I wonder if the perps would ever admit to be involved in something so obscenely evil. I don't think they ever will. Amnesty or not. They'll never tell us the Truth. Besides, for me, I want to see them caught and revealed to the world. I want them to live the rest of their lives in hell.

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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 08:21 AM


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I feel ya. And I agree that all the perps wouldn't be forthcoming. History shows that Hitler's SS Werewolves took blood oaths that they would kill themselves before surrendering or being captured. Certainly this is exactly the sort of imbecile-organization we're up against.

That said there are numerous people who would come forward if they knew that they and their families would be protected, that they would face no criminal charges, and that they could go through some sort of witness relocation and rehabilitation program. They live in fear too.
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Citizen Pawn
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:09 AM


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No, we are a nation of laws and just like how they don't "negotiate with terrorists", we don't negotiate with them. I don't believe in mercy for the merciless to let them roam and kill more children and innocents. Not on my watch. Sorry I sound harsh, it's just my opinion.
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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:12 AM


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So you want revenge?
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Andoo Inc.
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:15 AM


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As long as we think we are living creatures, evil will find its way amongst the weak. You would be then asking if we could trust our nation. The answer is no. Not enough wisdom, discipline and faith in the right things. This country will take whatever pills this gov't gives them. We've watered down all the violence to the tv. Back in the day I might say yes, but sheeple are weak and tossed around with ease like scions.
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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:18 AM


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You understand that 911T is being handled so that it can be used to divide the country as part of a larger ploy to dissolve the USG, to destroy US sovereignty, to balkanize America, and to ensure the governments of the resulting militarized statelets answer to the U.N. Remember what happened to Germany after the war, divided in two and then lorded over by an international government. That's where we're headed. We can circumvent this, but it's going to require that we rise above petty desires for vengence.
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Citizen Pawn
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:21 AM


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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jul 12 2007, 09:12 AM)
So you want revenge?

I don't seek vengeance, I seek Justice. And I'm not a fan of letting killers roam around out of some spiritual guilt that I should be "merciful" to appease the gods or some spiritual "higher road". If we don't uphold the law, then what are we fighting for? From then on , it sets an example that you can do anything as long as you confess in the end. Killers love loopholes like that, and will use it to murder billions if they can.
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Andoo Inc.
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:21 AM


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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jul 12 2007, 02:18 PM)
You understand that 911T is being handled so that it can be used to divide the country as part of a larger ploy to dissolve the USG, to destroy US sovereignty, to balkanize America, and to ensure the governments of the resulting militarized statelets answer to the U.N. Remember what happened to Germany after the war, divided in two and then lorded over by an international government. That's where we're headed. We can circumvent this, but it's going to require that we rise above petty desires for vengence.

that's when you have the classic theory vs. practice like in the new harry potter movie. Your kindness in theory is great, in the real world people do things differently and it's much different, you know this. it's hard and 911t has been trying not to divide but to spread truth. It will be made a battle whether you want it to or not, people in time just have to decide when others need the truth shoved down their throat.
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Citizen Pawn
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:26 AM


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George, I appreciate your spiritual conscience on this matter, trust me, I know where you're at. I think you're a good guy and one of the more spiritual here. I just don't confuse justice or it's necessity with vengeance. I don't deal with people like "them" in a patient fashion. I think there is a point when the spiritual practice is out of step with the realities we live in.

This is not our world George, you know that.
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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:33 AM


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You do understand of course that a standard procedure in law enforcement is to drop charges on the smaller fish so they roll over on the larger fish. That's functional real world crime fighting in action. My hunch is there are many smaller fish out there who will roll over on the larger fish and will get the Truth out there if we promise not to press charges.

So in a lot of ways the decision comes down to which you desire more, the Truth getting out and all that it's dissemination will bring or revenge. If you select the latter we may get neither.
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Citizen Pawn
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:39 AM


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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jul 12 2007, 09:33 AM)
You do understand of course that a standard procedure in law enforcement is to drop charges on the smaller fish so they roll over on the larger fish. That's functional real world crime fighting in action. My hunch is there are many smaller fish out there who will roll over on the larger fish and will get the Truth out there if we promise not to press charges.

So in a lot of ways the decision comes down to which you desire more, the Truth getting out and all that it's dissemination will bring or revenge. If you select the latter we may get neither.

Oh yeah, well plea bargains are done all the time. Like say if one of the small fish came forward about what he knew about a big fish, my answer would be different. But your premise didn't include that in your initial post. or I didn't get that sense.

If some dude at NORAD for instance had some knowledge and a hand in it, yeah I would take a plea for a larger fish. But what do we do with the initial small fish? Let him roam around on "probation"? I doubt if he would live a week after a name goes public. They would have be sent out of the country or in witness protection.

EDIT: And George, can you please be respectful to my previous posts where I state that it wouldn't be out of revenge? There is no need to keep using that line when I have already stated different.
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Rei Murasame
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:40 AM


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This may be all hypothetical, but I voted 'yes'. That would be the best way to have your cake and eat it too.

You could 'promise' amnesty, get people to admit things (you'd need to have leverage to even begin to make that bargain anyway), and then after they admit to stuff, 'break the promise' and send the lot of them to firing squads.

That way you get it both ways.
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jimmyb207
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 09:46 AM


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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jul 12 2007, 09:33 AM)
You do understand of course that a standard procedure in law enforcement is to drop charges on the smaller fish so they roll over on the larger fish. That's functional real world crime fighting in action. My hunch is there are many smaller fish out there who will roll over on the larger fish and will get the Truth out there if we promise not to press charges.

So in a lot of ways the decision comes down to which you desire more, the Truth getting out and all that it's dissemination will bring or revenge. If you select the latter we may get neither.

I want the heads of the people who PLANNED and CARRIED OUT 9-11, the people who rigged the towers with the cutter charges, the people who pushed the button for the charges to go off. I think I could only accept amnesty for the smallest of fish in this case. If they could point the finger to the real evil masters of that day. Then maybe....
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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 10:07 AM


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QUOTE (Citizen Pawn @ Jul 12 2007, 02:39 PM)
But what do we do with the initial small fish? Let him roam around on "probation"? I doubt if he would live a week after a name goes public. They would have be sent out of the country or in witness protection.

That's exactly what I'm saying and more. Amnesty for all the criminals as long as the Truth comes forward. See the way I envision it is after the Truth is embraced we will see:

1) A rebirth in democracy.
2) An era of peace that will not end in our lifetimes.
3) Meaning, of course, the end of war.
4) A spiritual awakening that cannot be reversed.
5) A revolution in the way we live that will enable us to contend with the real problems we face, such as massive environmental changes in an era defined by a drastic shortage of resources.

If these things happen, then you get your "justice." What I'm saying is if the truth about what they've done comes out they will never be able to do what they did again because the change in the way people view government and the world would be so fundamental as to disallow it.

The way it works is they pulled of 911 the way they did because we are the way we are. 911 wasn't an anomaly. It was the natural result of the systems in effect at the time. What 911T will do is change the way we are. It will change the systems in effect. And thus never again will something like 911 be able to happen.

And how about this, as opposed to sinking to the level of the killers by killing them, instead we show how mature we are, how much bigger we are than them by forcing them to assimilate to our world. We force them into rehabilitation programs and probation that attempts to cure the sickness they have.

Of the criminal, Jesus would say that if he committed a crime it was because he was subjected to a system that makes criminals of men. The size of the crime make no difference.

I say we forgive them if they ask for it and we use the Truth to bring about the changes necessary to save the world from the materialist, Satanic Illuminati.

CP, you know I respect you. I always read all of your posts. I never meant any disrespect. Certainly we are on the same level on many things. I just hope you understand that killing people for the killing they've done represents neither change nor justice. At least that's the way I see it.
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jimmyb207
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 10:23 AM


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I don't know George....You don't think maybe that kind of leniency could encourage more evil in the future? Maybe only the spiritual would have "the awakening". The animals with no conscience or souls would remain as such. Maybe it would be seen as a weakness? Don't get me wrong...you're in a good place. But the people who did this are not what I would call human.

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Rei Murasame
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 10:29 AM


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I don't understand the mindset that would lead someone to think that showing mercy to a bunch of child-raping, child-molesting, treasonous criminals, is in any way a good thing.

Perhaps it might make you feel like a 'better' person to spare their lives if you caught them, but the legal system demands consequences for crimes, and so someone convincted of the kind of serious crimes you guys are talking about would absolutely need to die.

They'd have known the risk they were taking when they got involved. If the situation were reversed, they'd do the same to you.

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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 10:50 AM


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Bloodthirsty, Rei? Seeking vengence? Should consequences dictate one's course of action? Is the golden rule: Do unto others that which I think they would do unto me? That doesn't sound right.

Haven't you all had enough of the killing?

Look, Sartre said it well. Other people are mirrors. When you see Cheney you see your own reflection. Why? Because the decisions you make contribute to the systems that made him what he is. What this means is Cheney is a symptom. The problem is the system. Now are we going to address the real problem or are we going to treat a symptom?

See what gets lost here is how it all begins and ends with you. You have to be the change you want to see in other people. Killing those who have killed does not represent change. Not in the least.

What I am getting at is you are playing their game. By being vengeful, by enacting wrath, by killing as a solution to a problem, you are essentially mirroring them. Their game will continue to exist as long as you continue to play it. To end that game, all you have to do is stop playing it.

I am willing to forgive the perps if it means that 911T will be actively embraced by every man, woman and child in the world. Because if that happens, wow, you wanna talk about changing the way we allow ourselves to be ruled! It will be the absolute end of war. Period. End of story. All wars are based on deception and 911T is a pure expression of this imperative. If everyone is forced to embrace 911T then there will never again be war!

If the perps coming forward with the Truth ensured that there never again was war, wouldn't you thank them?
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Citizen Pawn
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 11:12 AM


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George,

I tried to see where you're coming from and appreciated the gesture, but now I'm just going to be straight with you and not sugar coat shit.

Beyond your ideology about this topic. The only question I have for you now is......what does the Constitution say?

What is the punishment for treason? We talk about the constitution an guarding it all the time, yet we don't want to follow it. What is the law of a public official aiding in killing citizens. We've been through this George, the framers were VERY specific and made laws for a reason, and they were some of the fairest laws ever devised in a modern nation.

Regardless of your feelings, you must consult the constitution if you value it's existence. Otherwise we become a nation of loopholes and special treatment.
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George Hayduke
Posted on Jul 12 2007, 11:30 AM


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Good point. You are all making good points.

But if 911T will bring about an end to war, all war, including economic warfare, then there will be no such thing as treason. Right? So that part of the Constitution will be obsolete in the new world created post 911T.

Remember to achieve amnest you must publicly, openly admit to your role in exactly what happened that day. People who were a part of 911 and the subsequent cover-up (which is essentially a continuation of the crime itself) were in:

The media (mentioned first for a reason).
The military.
Congress.
The Senate.
The Executive Branch.
The Judicial Branch.
FAA
FBI
NRO
CIA
on and on and on

This will take months, even years of nonstop testifying by perps, perps that are in many agencies in many governments and corporations in almost every country around the world. It will bring society to a screeching halt and you can bet it is something that nobody will be able to ignore. And it will change everything. We'll be forced to look at history, at the world, at our fellow citizens and brothers and sisters around the world with new eyes.

Surely you see what I'm saying, that in 911T is contained Pearl Harbor Truth, Gulf of Tonkin Truth, on and on.
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