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Loose Change Forum > WTC 7 > Search For Wtc 7 South Upper And Lower Lobby Photo


Posted by: Ferric Oxide May 17 2007, 12:02 PM
This subject matter is worthy of a separate thread as in my opinion, it is one of the keys to determining what went on in and around the south lobby of building 7 prior to and after the collapses of both WTC towers.

Here is what we have so far:

user posted image

Willie Cirone;
user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

Now, debunkers might suggest that the photographer did not turn to his right to snap a photo of the WTC 7 lobby area "close-up" because there was too much debris, or that it was too dangerous, or something like that. However, this bit of denial is not plausible as according to NIST, the conditions in the lobby area of building 7were as follows:

First: Debris damage to Building 7 after the collapse of WTC 2:
NIST:
1-Some south face glass broken at lower floors

2-Dust covered lobby areas at floors 1 and 3

3-No fires observed

Second: Debris damage to Building 7 after the collapse of WTC 1:
NIST:
1-Heavy debris on Vesey Street and WTC 7 Promenade

2-No heavy debris observed in lobby area, white dust coating

3-SW corner damage-floors 8 to 18

4-South face damage between two exterior columns-roof level, down to 5 to 10 floors, extent not known

5-South face damage:
a-middle 1/4-1/3 width south face, 10th
b-large debris hole near center around 14th
c-1/4 width south face, above 5th floor, atrium glass intact
d-8th/9th floor from inside, visible south wall gone with more damage to west, 2 elevator cars dislodged into elevator lobby

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/June2004WTC7StructuralFire&CollapseAnalysisPrint.pdf

Again, I challenge ANYONE to find ONE photo of the Building 7 lower and/or upper lobby areas (reasonably close-up) and video from throughout the day on September 11, 2001.

user posted image

Above: the Vesey Street Bridge is clearly in view, as is the east corner of building 7. (We are facing WTC 5 and 6. Note: that I believe that there are several unpublished photos of the lobby area of building 7 that we must locate and post immediately.)

Below is yet another photo of the south side of building 7 seen as the smoke from WTC 5 and 6 rising up to the building.

user posted image

Here is another Vesey street photo. Building 7 is not in view. The photo shows Building 5 and 6 on the left with the pedestrian bridge in view. Based on other photos, it seems that the North Tower has already collapsed. Still I have not found a picture of the lobby are of building 7 throughout the day. Remember that NIST stated that after the collapse of the north tower that there was "heavy debris on Vesey Street and WTC 7 Promenade," which we see in many photos, but that there was "no heavy debris observed in lobby area," which we can't see as we haven't located photos from the lobby are of building 7 taken by Cirone, Spak or anyone.

user posted image

Posted by: xBIGGSx May 17 2007, 10:40 PM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ May 17 2007, 12:02 PM)
user posted image

I find this picture interesting because it shows that only light debris (the huge cloud of smoke) reached just ONE side of WTC 7 yet the government claims that the fires in the building were started by falling debris from WTC 1. Did anybody see a flaming cloud of smoke? If there was fire in the debris then why would it not ignite Bankers Trust whose entire building was within the light debris zone?

Posted by: Ferric Oxide May 18 2007, 12:39 PM
So are you telling me that there is not ONE---NOT ONE publically available photograph or video clip of the upper and/or lower lobby ares of building 7 from ANYTIME during the day of September 11, 2001.

---There was a temporary triage center in the lobby--Where are the photos?

---There was a major evacuation---Where are the photos?

---Willie Cirone was a mere few feet from the building lobby---Where are the photos?

---The CIA had the area scoured for documents after the collapse---Where are the photos?


THESE are the photos and video we need to truely find out what went on in and around building 7. These will quell any attempts at exercising "plausible denial." This is the key.


Remember, I am looking for ANY photos of that area after the WTC 1 strike, after the WTC 2 strike, after the WTC2 collapse, or after the WTC 1 collapse.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide May 18 2007, 03:32 PM
A WTC 7 Division of a triage center was established at 9:30 am

http://www.dps.state.vt.us/homeland/fdnylessonslearned9-11.pdf
Where are the photos?

Posted by: e^n May 19 2007, 08:14 AM
I wonder if anyone has filed a FOIA request for the WTC7 photos NIST holds. Their final report should be out soon but I am not sure if you can request them beforehand. I am sure you could specify specific pictures but it might cost a little more, i'd be willing to chip in $20. I think you'd need someone in the US to file it though (Brit!)

Posted by: miragememories May 20 2007, 02:37 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 19 2007, 01:14 PM)
I wonder if anyone has filed a FOIA request for the WTC7 photos NIST holds. Their final report should be out soon but I am not sure if you can request them beforehand. I am sure you could specify specific pictures but it might cost a little more, i'd be willing to chip in $20. I think you'd need someone in the US to file it though (Brit!)

I've read repeatedly that NIST wants something in the order of $17,000 for their photo collection relating to 9/11.

MM

Posted by: e^n May 20 2007, 09:01 PM
QUOTE (miragememories @ May 20 2007, 02:37 PM)
QUOTE (e^n @ May 19 2007, 01:14 PM)
I wonder if anyone has filed a FOIA request for the WTC7 photos NIST holds. Their final report should be out soon but I am not sure if you can request them beforehand. I am sure you could specify specific pictures but it might cost a little more, i'd be willing to chip in $20. I think you'd need someone in the US to file it though (Brit!)

I've read repeatedly that NIST wants something in the order of $17,000 for their photo collection relating to 9/11.

MM

I think that was for everything, still $17000 is nothing! I can contribute up to $100 of that easily and there are plenty enough people in the 'truther' community to collect that.

Has anyone set up any trustable way to donate towards this?

Posted by: waterdancer May 21 2007, 04:14 AM
Video footage showing that area between the two collapses is available. Watch the ATF employee wave the cameraman away, walk under the promenade, triage area, etc.

http://www.archive.org/details/nbc200109111323-1404 (15 min. mark or so) from that area and time of day at least once, the BBC footage of that area was broadcast a lot- the earliest time I'm aware of that footage being http://www.archive.org/movies/thumbnails.php?identifier=bbc200109111121-1202 was around 11:44. I doubt it was ever broadcast live, but it's still footage. Of course, we still don't have the key, which is footage or pics AFTER the north tower collapsed. Those are the money shots. wink.gif

This pic below is the closest I've seen to what you're looking for. Not much closer than the other Cirone pictures, but if you squint and use your imagination a bit, I think you can just make out some broken glass on the south face of WTC 7. of course with all the somewhat to extremely light reflective surfaces (including the south side of WTC 7, the bottom of the pedestrian bridge and the glassed in railing by the bent propeller) it's difficult to say exactly what's what.
user posted image
user posted image

Posted by: miragememories May 21 2007, 09:29 AM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 21 2007, 02:01 AM)
QUOTE (miragememories @ May 20 2007, 02:37 PM)
QUOTE (e^n @ May 19 2007, 01:14 PM)
I wonder if anyone has filed a FOIA request for the WTC7 photos NIST holds. Their final report should be out soon but I am not sure if you can request them beforehand. I am sure you could specify specific pictures but it might cost a little more, i'd be willing to chip in $20. I think you'd need someone in the US to file it though (Brit!)

I've read repeatedly that NIST wants something in the order of $17,000 for their photo collection relating to 9/11.

MM

I think that was for everything, still $17000 is nothing! I can contribute up to $100 of that easily and there are plenty enough people in the 'truther' community to collect that.

Has anyone set up any trustable way to donate towards this?

I believe with that price comes a form of non-disclosure agreement.

It's not as simple as a group collecting the funds and then openly disseminating the images throughout the internet.

MM

Posted by: e^n May 21 2007, 10:11 AM
QUOTE (miragememories @ May 21 2007, 09:29 AM)
I believe with that price comes a form of non-disclosure agreement.

It's not as simple as a group collecting the funds and then openly disseminating the images throughout the internet.

MM

The FOIA requests on NIST Review don't seem to have any NDA requirements but even so, as long as there's an independent person we both agree on to look at them we can get accurate assessments of damage amount etc.

Posted by: peterabbit May 23 2007, 01:44 AM
QUOTE (miragememories @ May 20 2007, 02:37 PM)
QUOTE (e^n @ May 19 2007, 01:14 PM)
I wonder if anyone has filed a FOIA request for the WTC7 photos NIST holds. Their final report should be out soon but I am not sure if you can request them beforehand. I am sure you could specify specific pictures but it might cost a little more, i'd be willing to chip in $20. I think you'd need someone in the US to file it though (Brit!)

I've read repeatedly that NIST wants something in the order of $17,000 for their photo collection relating to 9/11.

MM

These photos are being withheld, because?

Posted by: e^n May 23 2007, 03:51 AM
QUOTE (peterabbit @ May 23 2007, 01:44 AM)
These photos are being withheld, because?

Copyright?

Posted by: miragememories May 23 2007, 01:02 PM
No doubt the FBI are holding back all the security cam videos from the Pentagon event because of the copyrite concerns as well...lol.

MM

Posted by: peterabbit May 23 2007, 03:58 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 23 2007, 03:51 AM)
QUOTE (peterabbit @ May 23 2007, 01:44 AM)
These photos are being withheld, because?

Copyright?

Copyright photographic evidence? Riiight...

NIST does not have any authority to copyright images they do not own.

QUOTE (NIST @ Dec. 9, 2002)
The team is especially interested in WTC 7 and views from the south and west faces of the towers. Anyone wishing to provide NIST with documents, photos or other materials

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/update/upd20021216.htm



Posted by: e^n May 23 2007, 05:02 PM
QUOTE (peterabbit @ May 23 2007, 03:58 PM)
Copyright photographic evidence? Riiight...

NIST does not have any authority to copyright images they do not own.

Photographs belong to the person who takes them, because NIST can't claim copyright they can't distribute them as they see fit. It's entirely possible that $17k is the cost of the copyright from every person involved and processing fees.

Who knows, but i'm willing to put in plenty of cash to support getting them all released.

Posted by: peterabbit May 23 2007, 06:18 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 23 2007, 05:02 PM)
It's entirely possible that $17k is the cost of the copyright from every person involved and processing fees.

And it's entirely possible 911 was an inside job.

wink.gif

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder May 23 2007, 07:45 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 23 2007, 05:02 PM)
QUOTE (peterabbit @ May 23 2007, 03:58 PM)
Copyright photographic evidence? Riiight...

NIST does not have any authority to copyright images they do not own.

Photographs belong to the person who takes them, because NIST can't claim copyright they can't distribute them as they see fit. It's entirely possible that $17k is the cost of the copyright from every person involved and processing fees.

Who knows, but i'm willing to put in plenty of cash to support getting them all released.

Not if the person was working for a government agency and it was his job to take pictures. NYPD has their own video unit that was at the WTC as soon as the attack started. Where are their pictures? Where are the hi res videos from the helicopters?

Posted by: behind May 23 2007, 08:52 PM
According to Steven Jones in Revisiting 9/11/2001 --Applying the Scientific Method:

"The
NIST report on WTC7 is long overdue. NIST does have photos and videos of the collapse of WTC 7
which they have refused to release despite Freedom of Information Act requests. The excuse is that
while they are still studying this, they will not release the videos and photos of WTC 7. These videos
and photos were obtained mainly from the public at tax payer expense and I strongly suggest the public
should have a chance to look at all the data and we can study this ourselves, thank you." (p.65)

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2007/150507JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf (2.25 MB)

Posted by: peterabbit May 24 2007, 06:42 PM
QUOTE (behind @ May 23 2007, 08:52 PM)
According to Steven Jones in Revisiting 9/11/2001 --Applying the Scientific Method:

"The
NIST report on WTC7 is long overdue. NIST does have photos and videos of the collapse of WTC 7
which they have refused to release despite Freedom of Information Act requests. The excuse is that
while they are still studying this, they will not release the videos and photos of WTC 7. These videos
and photos were obtained mainly from the public at tax payer expense and I strongly suggest the public
should have a chance to look at all the data and we can study this ourselves, thank you." (p.65)

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2007/150507JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf (2.25 MB)

Exactly!

Posted by: chris sarns May 26 2007, 07:46 PM
On Feb. 6, i applied to NIST-FOIA for photographs and videos [near time of collapse] of the south east side of WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 1.

On March 13, i got a reply saying i had been assigned to "all other requests"
which means the first 2 hours of search and duplication are free.
[no mention of copyright fees]

I requested an estimate and on May 16 i received a reply.

For $239.25 [estimate] i can have them with these conditions:

Charges will be assessed weather or not responsive documents are located and weather or not any of these documents are exempt from disclosure under FOIA.

Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

I called back and they told me that there were 25 photographs and 2 videos [with sound] just before and during the collapse.

No photographs or videos will be released to anyone until the 'investigation' is complete.

No firm date for when this will happen. [maybe June]

I must gamble my $239.25 within 30 days of May 16 or they will close my request and i will have to start over again.

BTW: The people at FOIA are friendly, helpful, and even apologetic about the rules.

When i told them that NIST published photos of every side and angle except the south east side, they understood my concern.

So, there are photographs of the south east side of WTC 7 but the government is using the 'investigation' as an excuse to withhold them from the public.

Posted by: e^n May 26 2007, 09:02 PM
QUOTE (chris sarns @ May 26 2007, 07:46 PM)
For $239.25 [estimate] i can have them with these conditions:
...
No photographs or videos will be released to anyone until the 'investigation' is complete.

No firm date for when this will happen. [maybe June]

Personally I think we should wait for the final report if this is the case, but if you are intent on going ahead with it I will put in $50.

Posted by: chris sarns May 28 2007, 10:41 AM
e^n

Thanx for the offer.

I don't feel right about taking money but after i send a check to NIST-FOIA you could buy some LC2e's and send them to me.

Posted by: genghis6199 May 28 2007, 10:57 AM
i think it's funny how people think nist is gonna publish a report that actually examines wtc7 properly.

it would go like this....
we spent 2 years backing up the whole 19 arabs thing but wtc 7 was oddly brought down by demolition.......

Posted by: chris sarns May 28 2007, 03:16 PM
No, no, no

It will read like this:

We have determined, by reexamining the videos of the collapse, that
WTC 7 looks like a Duck.
Upon further examination of the audio evidence from 2 of the 6,000 video clips we are withholding from the public, we have determined that the
WTC 7 collapse sounds like a Duck.
However, we are still trying to determine how we can determine weather or not
WTC 7 walked like a Duck.
Further study is needed.

Posted by: e^n May 28 2007, 08:14 PM
QUOTE (genghis6199 @ May 28 2007, 10:57 AM)
i think it's funny how people think nist is gonna publish a report that actually examines wtc7 properly.

it would go like this....
we spent 2 years backing up the whole 19 arabs thing but wtc 7 was oddly brought down by demolition.......

Why would that be a problem for them? It's like saying "They're not going to investigate WTC 1 and 2 properly", but they did? Hell even their preliminary report contains some pretty reasonable speculation.

The very fact you are discounting it before it is even released is worrying.

Posted by: miragememories May 29 2007, 10:17 AM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 29 2007, 01:14 AM)
QUOTE (genghis6199 @ May 28 2007, 10:57 AM)
i think it's funny how people think nist is gonna publish a report that actually examines wtc7 properly.

it would go like this....
we spent 2 years backing up the whole 19 arabs thing but wtc 7 was oddly brought down by demolition.......

Why would that be a problem for them? It's like saying "They're not going to investigate WTC 1 and 2 properly", but they did? Hell even their preliminary report contains some pretty reasonable speculation.

The very fact you are discounting it before it is even released is worrying.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, NIST will say "it must be time to redefine a duck."

Why would NIST have a problem with a controlled demolition finding for WTC7?

Are you really that naive e^n??

It's not just a matter of doing a scientific investigation, analyzing the results and presenting the conclusions. I mean it should be, and you seem to think that it is as simple as that.

Unfortunately, like it or not the whole process is effected by political considerations.

IF NIST in their Final WTC7 Collapse Report determine that the only viable causal explanation for the collapse of WTC7 was pre-planted controlled demolitions, it won't be a case of "well that's that, what do we work on tomorrow?"

That finding virtually rips open all the 9/11 political wounds.

How was it done?

Who did it?

Why did they do it?

If they planned a CD of WTC7 on 9/11 how can the high speed vertical collapses of WTC 1 & 2 possibly be a coincidence?

Did NIST investigate the collapses of WTC 1 & 2 properly?

A controlled demolition finding for WTC7 is a Pandora's Box and NIST administrators know it. It's the NIST administration and those who supervised the NIST investigations and determined what was important and was not that will find their neckties feeling awfully tight.

A few Notes about NIST and their delayed WTC7 Collapse Report;

NIST claims they did not have sufficient time to complete the report, because its staff was too small. They accepted $20,000,000.00 of tax payer money to to investigate WTC 1,2 & 7, yet 5 years after this horrific event of major ongoing consequence and importance, they have yet to complete it's final investigation because they chose to not hire more staff?

As an agency of the U.S. Commerce Dept., and hence an agency of the U.S. government, is there any doubt that if President Bush had asked Congress for an additional $10 million to expedite NIST's work, Congress would have approved it?

NIST can't use any of the three main claims it employed to explain the collapses of WTC 1 & 2.
- no airplane impact stripped fireproofing from steel
- no airplane explosion and jet fuel initiated very big fires
- no airplane impact severing and damaging sufficient columns to allow a 'falldown' collapse

NIST is stuck with debris damage from WTC1 and whatever they can argue re:fire damage.

NIST has to explain the total high speed collapse of a huge, modern, over-engineered for renovation, concrete and steel building. 47-storys, 24 core columns, 57 perimeter columns and covering a complete city block.

NIST has to explain the symmetry of the collapse. How did 81 columns manage to all fail at the same time?

NIST should, though they ignored it with WTC 1 & 2, explain the molten metal underneath WTC7.

NIST needs to account for all the eyewitness accounts of explosions, though again, NIST ignored similar reports of explosions with WTC 1 & 2.

NIST needs to discount expert testimony from Dutch demolition expert Danny Jowenko, Hugo Bachman & Jorg Schneider of the ETH Swiss Federal Institute of Technolgy in Zurich and Heikki Kurttila, an accident analyst for the Finnish National Satety Technology Authority.

NIST should explain the widespread and long duration foreknowlege of WTC7's collapse?

What is worrying is that people like yourself have bet your whole bankroll on NIST and after having done so, only pretend to listen to contrary opinions.

In your own words, you accept their preliminary report as pretty reasonable speculation. When experts far more qualified than yourself, give an educated, experienced opinion with which you disagree, your loyalty to NIST as an institution appears to blind you to the reality of NIST as a political entity, and you steadfastly cling to your faith in the NIST speculation of failing transfer trusses that miraculously made this all possible.

A wiser person would keep their mouth shut and hope that their NIST heroes would come up with a better explanation.

WTC7 is not called the "smoking gun" for nothing!

MM

Posted by: e^n May 29 2007, 12:59 PM
QUOTE (miragememories)
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, NIST will say "it must be time to redefine a duck."
Why would NIST have a problem with a controlled demolition finding for WTC7?
Are you really that naive e^n??

You have yet to demonstrate they have ignored evidence, true scientists do not change conclusions based on politics and there's no evidence of manipulation of the reports .

QUOTE
IF NIST in their Final WTC7 Collapse Report determine that the only viable causal explanation for the collapse of WTC7 was pre-planted controlled demolitions, it won't be a case of "well that's that, what do we work on tomorrow?"

That finding virtually rips open all the 9/11 political wounds.

Yes, yes it does. I'm not denying the fact it would re-open a bunch of queries and I think that if they do determine controlled demolition they need to reinvestigate WTC1 and 2

The rest of your post is mostly valid

QUOTE
NIST needs to account for all the eyewitness accounts of explosions, though again, NIST ignored similar reports of explosions with WTC 1 & 2.

No they don't, not only is this impossible, it's pointless. Are you claiming that in a large scale office fire there would be no explosions other than planted ones?

QUOTE
NIST should explain the widespread and long duration foreknowlege of WTC7's collapse?

How is this not sufficiently explained already?

QUOTE
A wiser person would keep their mouth shut and hope that their NIST heroes would come up with a better explanation.

You insult me and claim I steadfastly claim to the NIST report yet this is simply because you have produced absolutely no evidence of any manipulation of inaccuracy. You complain about NIST regularly and misrepresent their report by literally replacing words you don't find appropriate yet you have yourself completely ignored a thorough analysis of your work.

It is you who refuses to accept arguments against your theory, I posted a comprehensive analysis of Kinetic Energy in response to your critique http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7589, nearly a month later while ignoring my original reply you claim it again http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9347&view=findpost&p=13632296 and yet again fail to show me how I am wrong.

Stop claiming that I am somehow brainwashed or steadfast in my beliefs, your absolute inability to provide contradictory evidence and your ignoring of my criticisms indicates that you are the one without ability to change.

Posted by: peterabbit May 29 2007, 02:06 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 28 2007, 08:14 PM)
QUOTE (genghis6199 @ May 28 2007, 10:57 AM)
i think it's funny how people think nist is gonna publish a report that actually examines wtc7 properly.

it would go like this....
we spent 2 years backing up the whole 19 arabs thing but wtc 7 was oddly brought down by demolition.......

Why would that be a problem for them? It's like saying "They're not going to investigate WTC 1 and 2 properly", but they did? Hell even their preliminary report contains some pretty reasonable speculation.

The very fact you are discounting it before it is even released is worrying.

Look, they're playing good cop bad cop now...

these two are disinfo partners, just watch how they play off eachother.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jun 6 2007, 10:54 AM
Guiliani evacuated the building. I am certain there are photos and video of the evacuation, the triage center, and "others" entering and leaving the building. I can not stress enough that it is vitally important that we get these photos and video. It is the only way (aside from testing the steel and observing collapse videos) that we can see what went on by observing who went in and out of there during the day.




user posted image
Above: The intact Vesey Street bridge is seen from in front of the WTC 7 Lobby. Building 5 and 6 are on the right of the photographer.

Below:One can see the lower lobby entrance of the WTC 7 south side after the collapse of the towers in the condition stated in the NIST report.
"2-No heavy debris observed in lobby area, white dust coating."

user posted image
user posted image

Here is the reference video to help us pinpoint time and place:
http://www.studyof911.com/video/flvplayer/playmovie.php?video=wtc7aftercollapses.flv

Note that the south lobby was a triage center at 9:30am. We now need photos and video of the UPPER SOUTH SIDE LOBBY from anytime during the day on 911, and go from there. And we need many more of the photos taken of the WTC7 Division Triage Center and after the collapses of the towers.

Jim Dwyer of the New York Times told me he didn't have anything from the south side lobbies, but said I should ask NIST.

Posted by: e^n Jun 6 2007, 11:00 AM
In the first picture above, that certainly appears to be after WTC2 collapsed, WTC1 did significantly more damage to the walkway. Is this the case for the next two pictures or are they from a seperate video?

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jun 7 2007, 12:43 PM
They are all from the same video. The reference video is there for your review. So far this is the only south side lobby "footage" available. Again, there was a triage center called WTC 7 Division set up at 9:30am. (I'm not sure whether it was in the upper or lower. But remember that the Mayor evacuated this building and people were in and out until the evacuation. Photos are available, and likely in the possession of NIST. This would make for a very pointed and specific Freedom of Information request. (Video and still photographs of the WTC 7 south side upper and lower lobbies from throughout the day on 9/11/2001.)

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 15 2007, 02:58 AM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 23 2007, 05:02 PM)
QUOTE (peterabbit @ May 23 2007, 03:58 PM)
Copyright photographic evidence? Riiight...

NIST does not have any authority to copyright images they do not own.

Photographs belong to the person who takes them, because NIST can't claim copyright they can't distribute them as they see fit. It's entirely possible that $17k is the cost of the copyright from every person involved and processing fees.

Who knows, but i'm willing to put in plenty of cash to support getting them all released.

Any photographs taken by people working for a government agency are not subject to copyright, since they have been paid for with taxpayers dollars.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 15 2007, 04:11 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ Jun 6 2007, 11:00 AM)
In the first picture above, that certainly appears to be after WTC2 collapsed, WTC1 did significantly more damage to the walkway. Is this the case for the next two pictures or are they from a seperate video?

I agree, these are from after the WTC 2 collapse, but before the WTC 1 collapse, because the south walkway is still in good shape. Still interesting to see the conditions during that time period.

Also, do any of the Official Myth reports address the ConEd Substation that was located down there? If that caught fire, what would have happened?

Posted by: e^n Jun 15 2007, 04:15 PM
QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 15 2007, 04:11 PM)
Also,  do any of the Official Myth reports address the ConEd Substation that was located down there? If that caught fire, what would have happened?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, the NIST Preliminary WTC7 report addresses the ConEd substation existing, but not it's flammable contents, I would imagine several hundred gallons of mineral oil at the least (transformer coolant).

I'm sure the final report will contain some more details if it's deemed relevant.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 15 2007, 04:25 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ Jun 15 2007, 04:15 PM)
QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 15 2007, 04:11 PM)
Also,  do any of the Official Myth reports address the ConEd Substation that was located down there? If that caught fire, what would have happened?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, the NIST Preliminary WTC7 report addresses the ConEd substation existing, but not it's flammable contents, I would imagine several hundred gallons of mineral oil at the least (transformer coolant).

I'm sure the final report will contain some more details if it's deemed relevant.

Google before you post please.


QUOTE
One of the biggest problems to hit Lower Manhattan in the aftermath of September 11th was the disruption of the power supply, caused when the existing two substations adjacent to 7 World Trade Center were significantly damaged by the building's fire and subsequent collapse. On May 26, 2004, Con Edison opened the first part of the 7 World Trade substation, a two-part electrical station dedicated to providing power both to the World Trade Center as it continues to develop, and to the surrounding neighborhood.

http://www.projectrebirth.com/rebuild/engineering/conEd.html


According to this there were 2 substations adjacent to WTC 7 and both were significantly damaged by the fire and then the collapse. Could these substations have been a significant source for the smoke that billowed up from Vesey Street most of the day? If there was a lot of fire in these substations, exactly where were they located and what the hell was there to burn inside of them?

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 16 2007, 06:40 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ Jun 15 2007, 04:15 PM)
QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 15 2007, 04:11 PM)
Also,  do any of the Official Myth reports address the ConEd Substation that was located down there? If that caught fire, what would have happened?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, the NIST Preliminary WTC7 report addresses the ConEd substation existing, but not it's flammable contents, I would imagine several hundred gallons of mineral oil at the least (transformer coolant).

I'm sure the final report will contain some more details if it's deemed relevant.

Aw, gee wiz, e^n, don't have an answer? Maybe those substations deserve a closer look? What the hell was going on down there that day. Why did the man behind the curtain need to block access to that area for until the building collapsed?

user posted image

This was a mechanical site map for the WTC after the 1993 bombing.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jun 24 2007, 02:30 PM
OK, so now we apparently have some stills from the video showing the condition of the WTC 7 lower lobby (outside doors and outside area) before the collapse of the north tower. I suspect that the Triage center known as "WTC 7 Division" was quartered in the upper south lobby---near that sculpture. We also have that new eye witness who apparently witnessed some bodies and damage there--BEFORE the collapse of either tower.

We need the photos and video of that triage area, the evacuation--and from any point during the day---Cirone, Spak and others have them. This, my friends, will SHOW us what went on---who went in and out that day.

Posted by: hturt Jun 24 2007, 05:19 PM
Dr. Steven Jones said the company NIST commissioned to do the WTC7 report were asked only to look at floors 8 thru 46. WTC7 has 47 floors with sub floors.

If anyone thinks NIST is going to put out a report that would not support the OTC they are deluded; the fix is already in.


Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jun 24 2007, 08:43 PM
I have a hunch that the insurance company that paid out is waiting intently for the report---the certified report.

Posted by: JTGOB Jun 24 2007, 08:52 PM
QUOTE (e^n @ May 23 2007, 10:02 PM)
QUOTE (peterabbit @ May 23 2007, 03:58 PM)
Copyright photographic evidence? Riiight...

NIST does not have any authority to copyright images they do not own.

Photographs belong to the person who takes them, because NIST can't claim copyright they can't distribute them as they see fit. It's entirely possible that $17k is the cost of the copyright from every person involved and processing fees.

Who knows, but i'm willing to put in plenty of cash to support getting them all released.

They can under Fair Use, and this would surely fall under Fair Use.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 24 2007, 09:30 PM
QUOTE (hturt @ Jun 24 2007, 05:19 PM)
Dr. Steven Jones said the company NIST commissioned to do the WTC7 report were asked only to look at floors 8 thru 46. WTC7 has 47 floors with sub floors.

If anyone thinks NIST is going to put out a report that would not support the OTC they are deluded; the fix is already in.

One big reason why the NIST folks only looked at the floors from 8 up. The building failed between the 5th and 7th floors, which is where the trusses were that held the building up over the ConEd substation. NIST knows that this is where the building failed first and where it had to fail in order for the rest of the building to come down the way it did.

Funny thing about those lower floors. The 5th floor is where Jerome Hauer installed the a pressurized fuel system to deliver fuel from the storage tanks on the lower levels to the generators that were housed on the 5th floor. Even though WTC 7 was a sprinklered building, they didn't bother to install any sprinklers or other type of fire supression system on the fifth floor. Nice of them to install all those pipes to pump fuel right under the feet of all those trusses.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jun 25 2007, 08:30 AM
OK, but remember. This thread is about publishing the existing photos of the WTC 7 Division triage area, which opened at 9:30am on 9/11/2001. And publishing the photos of the evacuation of WTC7--likely from the upper south lobby on 911---and locating interior south upper and lower lobby photos and video to corroberate the witness testimony. Spak, Cirone and others likely have this video. Note that Spak has only released edited clips with debunker commentary, not unedited footage. For example, although he shows fairly far shots of the smoke emanating from WTC 7 , he has cut the footage of voluminous amounts of smoke emanating from WTC 5 and 6 and rising to the south side of WTC 7.

For this reason, we need the existing reasonably close up shots of the south side lobby areas (upper and lower). This (along with the existing testimony), will be the only way to verify what went on in and around the WTC 7 triage area on 911. I can only hope that the witness (and others) have provided Dylan and Jason, et al, with the data.

user posted image
Above: Willie Cirone took many photographs on 911 in the area of WTC7. many were used in the NIST report itself. Published photos include the Vesey Street Bridge after the collapse of WTC 1. He needs to release the WTC7 lobby photos and photos showing the evacuation of Guiliani and others as they actually are leaving WTC7, and of the triage division center in WTC7 and the alleged damage in the actual lobby.

Posted by: waterdancer Jul 2 2007, 10:51 PM
just a few additions:
Spak wouldn't have had triage shots, since he says that he arrived at ground zero just after the second tower fell (see http://www.brooklyneagle.com/archive/category.php?category_id=4&id=1460). That doesn't mean that he doesn't have unreleased/higher res. versions of WTC 7 that we'd like to see, of course.

Vesey Street video showing the promenade between collapses:
http://www.archive.org/details/cbs200109111733-1814
(appears at the beginning of this footage and a longer version is broadcast beginning @ 4:12)

possibly some more footage of WTC 7 lobby? (I can't positively identify it, but it looks like it to me- perhaps a higher res. version of it will show a shot of a 7 on the glass front at around 22:14, I dunno)
starting @ 22:02 - approximately (the footage before it is certainly identified by the ATF worker as being in front of WTC 7 below the promenade, but the footage cuts) the words on the wall beside the escalator say "Up To Main Lobby"
http://www.archive.org/details/bbc200109111121-1202

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 7 2007, 09:57 PM
Dude, in that clip you posted of the WTC7 promenade, did you see the news reporter after they showed the collapse of WTC 7. It's at about minute 6:06 of the 41 minute clip. This should be extracted and posted separately the guy says:

Regarding WTC 7:

Corrected url: http://www.archive.org/details/cbs200109111733-1814

News anchor: "I don't know if it was accomplished by demolition experts, or if it happened as a consequence of what happened earlier today."

Why would he say that?


Anyway, good new stuff, but I have yet to see the WTC 7 triage center at about 9:30am of the lobby of WTC 7.

Posted by: chris sarns Jul 8 2007, 02:30 AM
Ferric Oxide

You posted the wrong URL

Here's the right one again

http://www.archive.org/details/cbs200109111733-1814

5:55 to 6:19 would make a nice addition to the debate.

Put that together with Dan Rather and Peter Jennings(?)

BTW how do you use a word [or sentence] for a URL?

Also, thanx for the pics from, if not of, the south side.

Posted by: miragememories Jul 8 2007, 05:30 PM
QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 15 2007, 04:11 PM)
Also,  do any of the Official Myth reports address the ConEd Substation that was located down there? If that caught fire, what would have happened?


QUOTE (e^n @ Jun 15 2007, 05:15 PM)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, the NIST Preliminary WTC7 report addresses the ConEd substation existing, but not it's flammable contents, I would imagine several hundred gallons of mineral oil at the least (transformer coolant).

I'm sure the final report will contain some more details if it's deemed relevant.

Ah yes the final report now further delayed (stalled) until the end of this year.

MM

Posted by: waterdancer Jul 9 2007, 01:34 AM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Jul 8 2007, 02:57 AM)
Anyway, good new stuff, but I have yet to see the WTC 7 triage center at about 9:30am of the lobby of WTC 7.

Do we know precisely where the lobby triage center was? The reason I ask is because WTC 7 had 2 lobbies basically. Street level and third floor. If triage was occurring on street level, then isn't that what we are seeing the ATF employee walking past in one of the clips posted earlier? People being moved around on stretchers? Looks like it qualifies as triage footage to me...

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 9 2007, 08:54 PM
Could be. Well, I am not sure if it's the upper or lower lobby. I am writing to Cirone to get some of his stuff, and I'm going to ask the NIST guy again.

Posted by: kupci Jul 10 2007, 01:29 AM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ May 18 2007, 12:39 PM)
Remember, I am looking for ANY photos of that area after the WTC 1 strike, after the WTC 2 strike, after the WTC2 collapse, or after the WTC 1 collapse.

Have you seen "WTC the first 24 hours" by Etienne Sauret? No commentary, but I believe in the background, at one point, he has a shot of 7 collapsing. Granted, not close at all.

He seems to wander around the buildings, not sure how he got in their with a camera, has some shots of a building with an atrium with palm trees.

In another shot, I think in one of the sandwich shops, someone has spray painted "vidence <<<<" on the wall. Couldn't read it, though it was "Providence" or something like that, then I see the word is "Evidence". Wonder what the heck they meant?

Can't say I thoroughly reviewed the film, but it certainly does capture the shear amount of dust, and the smoldering piles of debris, much like the giant aftermath of your basic grill fire, i.e. smoldering ruins. In one scene, he captures a car exploding and burning.

Also amazing how quickly they got the dozers in to start plowing up the stuff. You'd think they'd have waited a bit, to get all the people out - so the last part is misleading, where someone is wandering around saying "hello?" I note that in the earthquake in Turkey a few years back, they were searching for people for days, perhaps a week afterward.


Posted by: dylan avery Jul 11 2007, 10:45 AM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Jun 25 2007, 01:30 PM)
Note that Spak has only released edited clips with debunker commentary, not unedited footage.

Get his DVD off Amazon. It contains alot of footage.

http://www.amazon.com/WTC-11-01-Day-Disaster/dp/B00066TBH6/

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 11 2007, 08:00 PM
OK Dylan,

I'll pick up Spak's DVD. I assume it will show the upper and lower lobbies of WTC 7 during the day, inside and out. I assume it will show the various entities entering and leaving the building, such as firefighters, Guliani. And I assume it will verify the casualties in the lobby of WTC 7.

THE PHOTOS DO EXIST.


This is really the crux of the case, Dylan. If the EXISTING footage and stills from the interior triage can be obtained to verify the statements from your eyewitness, then it is a done deal. An information packet can be compiled and sent to the district attorney in NY.


Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 14 2007, 08:56 AM
I'm posting this short WTC 7 related clip here. I will add triage photos of from the "WTC 7 Division" as they become available.

The short clip is from an eyewitness interviewed by Dianne Sawyer.

The unrelated pdf is the official triage set up flow chart listing the WTC 7 Division, where we need to obtain the photos to verify the eyewitness story--to compile and send to a county DA in NY. Posted below the photo.

user posted image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI5a2ENaH8Y

Above:Diane Sawyer an eyewitness on ABC News Live Coverage who said: "At Building 7 there was no fire there whatsoever, but there was one truck putting water on the building, but it collapsed completely."
My note: I agree with the comments which state that the person was likely speaking of the condition of WTC 7 after its collapse. However, I have a short clip of some fire on the debris pile that I'll post at this forum. The visible fires on top of the debris pile was minimal. A follow up question for this individual would have been: "Where in and around WTC 7 were you located? Did you go into the upper and lower lobby areas on the south side? Please describe what you saw?"

user posted image

Large JPEG: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1203/808028929_56ff198095_b.jpg

Posted by: MaGZ Jul 14 2007, 11:26 AM
QUOTE (xBIGGSx @ May 17 2007, 10:40 PM)
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ May 17 2007, 12:02 PM)
user posted image

I find this picture interesting because it shows that only light debris (the huge cloud of smoke) reached just ONE side of WTC 7 yet the government claims that the fires in the building were started by falling debris from WTC 1. Did anybody see a flaming cloud of smoke? If there was fire in the debris then why would it not ignite Bankers Trust whose entire building was within the light debris zone?

I think a missile fired by one of the fighters sent from Otis Air National Guard Base hit WTC 7 on the south side 14th floor at 9:03 that morning of 9/11. The F-16 fighter fired a missile in attempt to shoot down flight 175. The missile missed flight 175 and hit WTC 7 by mistake. The explosion attorney Berry Jennings experienced in WTC 7 was from the missile hit. WTC 7 fires were stated by the missile, not debris from the Twin Towers.

Posted by: MaGZ Jul 14 2007, 11:39 AM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Jun 6 2007, 10:54 AM)
Guiliani evacuated the building. I am certain there are photos and video of the evacuation, the triage center, and "others" entering and leaving the building. I can not stress enough that it is vitally important that we get these photos and video. It is the only way (aside from testing the steel and observing collapse videos) that we can see what went on by observing who went in and out of there during the day.




user posted image
Above: The intact Vesey Street bridge is seen from in front of the WTC 7 Lobby. Building 5 and 6 are on the right of the photographer.

Below:One can see the lower lobby entrance of the WTC 7 south side after the collapse of the towers in the condition stated in the NIST report.
"2-No heavy debris observed in lobby area, white dust coating."

user posted image
user posted image

Here is the reference video to help us pinpoint time and place:
http://www.studyof911.com/video/flvplayer/playmovie.php?video=wtc7aftercollapses.flv

Note that the south lobby was a triage center at 9:30am. We now need photos and video of the UPPER SOUTH SIDE LOBBY from anytime during the day on 911, and go from there. And we need many more of the photos taken of the WTC7 Division Triage Center and after the collapses of the towers.

Jim Dwyer of the New York Times told me he didn't have anything from the south side lobbies, but said I should ask NIST.

Guiliani was never inside WTC 7 on 9/11. He made it to the outside of WTC 7 on the northeast corner and was met by Bernard Kerik sometime after WTC 2 was hit. Kerik said it was unsafe to enter WTC 7 and they would have to create another command post nearby. The reason it was unsafe was because WTC 7 was on fire from the missile strike.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jul 14 2007, 12:45 PM
QUOTE (MaGZ @ Jul 14 2007, 11:39 AM)
[QUOTE=Ferric Oxide,Jun 6 2007, 10:54 AM]Guiliani evacuated the building. I am certain there are photos and video of the evacuation, the triage center, and "others" entering and leaving the building. I can not stress enough that it is vitally important that we get these photos and video. It is the only way (aside from testing the steel and observing collapse videos) that we can see what went on by observing who went in and out of there during the day.

<snip>

Guiliani was never inside WTC 7 on 9/11. He made it to the outside of WTC 7 on the northeast corner and was met by Bernard Kerik sometime after WTC 2 was hit. Kerik said it was unsafe to enter WTC 7 and they would have to create another command post nearby. The reason it was unsafe was because WTC 7 was on fire from the missile strike.

Here's Bernie Kerik's fantasy of what happened when during the first couple of hours during the attack.

Warning: This article is almost X rated and a barf bag might not be a bad idea. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE


Daily News (New York)

September 27, 2001, Thursday

HEADLINE: GIULIANI & GROUP OF TOP COPS BARELY DODGED DEATH AS TOWERS FELL

BYLINE: By JOHN MARZULLI DAILY NEWS POLICE BUREAU CHIEF


Before Sept. 11, no one in the Police Department could recall hearing the distress call "Code Black" screamed over the police radio before.

Just as a "10-13" is the radio code for officer in distress, Code Black is the call that means the mayor or the police commissioner is in danger.

When the south tower of the World Trade Center imploded, Mayor Giuliani, Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik and their top aides were trapped inside a building at 75 Barclay St.

With telephones knocked out, Kerik's bodyguard, Detective Hector Santiago, called a "Code Black" over the police radio frequency. Those who knew what it meant understood how serious the situation was. "That's the first time I ever heard a 'Code Black' called," said Kerik, who protected the Saudi royal family before he became a cop. "I knew it was bad, but I didn't know how bad."

Just how close the NYPD's top command came to being wiped out in the terrorist attack has never before been fully revealed. Kerik, along with his first deputy commissioner, the chief of department, the deputy commissioner of operations, the chief of detectives and other top brass were all in close proximity to the burning towers, and dodged rubble and debris as the structures fell.

"We were all probably too close to the scene," said Assistant Chief Thomas Fahey, a police spokesman. "We were very lucky."

When American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the south tower at 8:48 a.m., Kerik was taking a shower in his private bathroom on the 14th floor of Police Headquarters.

Moments later, Chief of Staff John Picciano was banging on the door, telling Kerik that a plane had struck the World Trade Center. The top cop assumed it was a small twin-engine aircraft or some kind of stunt plane that hit the building by accident.

"I went to the conference room and looked out the window," Kerik said yesterday. "I thought there was no way a small plane could have done that much damage. I'm thinking it was a bomb."

Kerik dashed to his antique desk, the one once used by another police commissioner, Theodore Roosevelt, and called Giuliani, who was already heading downtown.

The top cop was out of the building and in his sleek black Chrysler Concorde within five minutes. With him were Picciano, NYPD spokesman Thomas Antenen and bodyguards Santiago and Craig Taylor.

They decamped at West Broadway between Liberty and Barclay Sts. People were running past them, screaming hysterically. There were poor souls jumping from the burning towers. Seemed like a safe spot At that moment, the NYPD brass was still not thinking terrorist attack or building collapse.

"We were thinking it was a towering inferno, that it was just going to burn," said Deputy Inspector Chris Rising, a close aide to Kerik.

Then the unimaginable happened before their eyes.

"I was turning around to talk to [Picciano] when I heard the revving of an engine," Kerik recalled. "Somebody said the plane slowed down as it got to the tower. And then the explosion.

"Over the radio the ESU [Emergency Service Unit] guys were yelling it was a United airliner. At that point, I realized it was definitely a terrorist attack.

"My mind switched gears," he said. "Now I had to think: how many more planes are there? Where are they coming from? What are the other targets?"

Two minutes later, the mayor's vehicle pulled up. Kerik told Giuliani the city was under attack.

"The first thing out of [Giuliani's] mouth - he didn't miss a beat - he said, 'We got to cut off the air space,' " Kerik said. "I told Picciano to get us some air support."

The mayor's group, which included First Deputy Mayor Joe Lhota and top aides Tony Carbonetti and Sunny Mindel, huddled with Kerik, and they decided it was too dangerous to move to the city's command center at 7 World Trade Center.

The group walked to the south side of West St. in front of the American Express building, where they saw Fire Department brass, including Bill Feehan, the first deputy commissioner; Chief of Department Pete Ganci; Deputy Chief Ray Downey, and a chaplain, Rev. Mychal Judge.

Kerik also saw a familiar NYPD face, ESU Sgt. John Coughlin who in August 2000 had responded to the top cop's own family distress call when Kerik's 15-month-old daughter was choking at his Manhattan apartment.

"When I sped home that night, he was the first person standing in my vestibule. He was playing with my baby while my wife was hysterical. I've seen him a hundred times since then," Kerik said. Coughlin hasn't been seen since the attack. "He was a great guy," Kerik said. Command center on move The mayor and the police group decided to find another command center north of the Trade Center. A retired NYPD lieutenant came by and advised them to use a Merrill Lynch office at 75 Barclay St.

As they headed toward Barclay St., it was the last time they would see the four Fire Department officials and Sgt. Coughlin alive. Rescue workers recovered the bodies of the Fire officials, but Coughlin is among the 23 NYPD cops still listed as missing.

Setting up shop in a first-floor office at Merrill, Giuliani was on the phone with the White House when a rumble was heard and the building began to shake.

A detective ran into the room and yelled, "Hit the deck!" Kerik said the windows of the Merrill Lynch building started popping.

"Then all of a sudden this gush of smoke and dust burst in through the door," he said. "I can remember thinking: 'If the building doesn't fall on us, we're going to suffocate.' "

Their bodyguards yelled "Code Black," and broadcast their location of the building. Then they grabbed Kerik and Giuliani and tried to lead them out. Building maintenance workers led them through the basement, but the group found no exit, only locked doors.

Finally, they made it out to Church St., where, miraculously, their city cars were waiting for them.

"My driver and the mayor's driver were side by side on West Broadway when the tower fell," Kerik marveled. "They backed up 80 miles per hour up West Broadway and never hit a thing. Every car around 75 Barclay St. was demolished, but they beat it out of there."

Kerik would hear a radio transmission that the first deputy commissioner and chief of department were dead. He did not know it referred to the Fire Department's Feehan and Ganci.

A team of cops was dispatched to the home of NYPD Chief of Department Joe Esposito to await further orders. Esposito turned up okay. First Deputy Joseph Dunne also turned up safe, although his sport-utility vehicle was crushed under debris.

Kerik said there is no second-guessing about having so many top cops at the scene.

"If anything happens to any one of us, there's a line of succession," he said. "Leaders should lead by example."

Did he think he was going to die?

"I was angry," Kerik said, "because it's not often in this job that you don't have control over what's going on."

http://www.albany.edu/mumford/wtc/marzulli.htm





Posted by: waterdancer Jul 14 2007, 03:50 PM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Jul 12 2007, 01:00 AM)
OK Dylan,

I'll pick up Spak's DVD. I assume it will show the upper and lower lobbies of WTC 7 during the day, inside and out. I assume it will show the various entities entering and leaving the building, such as firefighters, Guliani. And I assume it will verify the casualties in the lobby of WTC 7.

THE PHOTOS DO EXIST.


This is really the crux of the case, Dylan. If the EXISTING footage and stills from the interior triage can be obtained to verify the statements from your eyewitness, then it is a done deal. An information packet can be compiled and sent to the district attorney in NY.

Spak didn't arrive at GZ until shortly after the North tower collapsed...

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 15 2007, 11:47 AM
QUOTE
MaGz said: Guiliani was never inside WTC 7 on 9/11. He made it to the outside of WTC 7 on the northeast corner and was met by Bernard Kerik sometime after WTC 2 was hit. Kerik said it was unsafe to enter WTC 7 and they would have to create another command post nearby.


Firstly, do we have a secondary source for this other than "Bernard Kerik" (that Guliani was never in, but only near WTC7)?

Secondly, this missile business is disinfo., unless you have a primary source? The missile business is a 2002 internet myth based on that chunk ejecting from WTC 2 after FLT 175 hit. Please correct me if I am wrong.


QUOTE
Waterdancer said: Spak didn't arrive at GZ until shortly after the North tower collapsed...


Great, since NIST stated that there was minimal south side lobby damage to WTC7(source on this thread. See NIST quote below), than it is certainly more likely that Spak's shots of that side are readily available.

QUOTE
NIST:
1-Heavy debris on Vesey Street and WTC 7 Promenade

2-No heavy debris observed in lobby area, white dust coating

3-SW corner damage-floors 8 to 18

4-South face damage between two exterior columns-roof level, down to 5 to 10 floors, extent not known




We must hone in on the south side upper and lower lobby TRIAGE area for the photographs. There are photos of several of the other triage areas which I can post as an example, but we really need to post the interior WTC 7 Division triage photos and video.

I think we are now back in focus.

Postscript: MaGZ: Kindly post the shot of Guliani in front of the northeast corner of WTC 7 upon his arrival there.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 16 2007, 07:17 PM
user posted image
Each of the Divisions was further broken down. I'll try to get more specifics, and we must find the WTC 7 Division photos upper and lower lobby close up and INTERIOR-prior to and after each of the the collapses--and during the course of the afternoon before the collapse of WTC 7. Note that a New York Times reporter indicated that NIST should be asked about the WTC 7 Division photos and that NIST is also looking into a so-called "accidental" blast scenario for WTC 7.

Photo:
West Street -Triage
user posted image
Photo:
Corner of Greenwich Street and North Moore-Triage
user posted image
Photo:
Boo (Base of Operations)
USAR teams were housed at the Jacob K. Javits Center in Manhattan
:
user posted image
Photo:
Chelsea Piers
user posted image

Photo:
Pace University Triage:"By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site [WTC 7 Division] up to Pace University, a little further away, because Building 7 was gonna come down or being brought down."-Indira Singh, a volunteer EMT


user posted image

Photo:
WTC 7 Division Triage-Inside WTC 7 Lobby (upper and lower south side) and immediately surrounding WTC 7 prior to and after WTC 2 and 1 collapses:

photo and video pending

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 28 2007, 11:11 AM
Follow up NIST request for photos and videos in their possession. A New york Times reporter suggested that I ask them for such data.


WORLD TRADE CENTER BUILDING 7 DATA REQUEST
SOUTH SIDE UPPER AND LOWER INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR LOBBY PHOTOS, AND NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION STUDY

To:Michael E. Newman


RE:FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
June 29, 2007

CONTACT: Michael E. Newman
(301) 975-3025
michael.newman@nist.gov

Follow up request for information directly from NIST in lieu of FOIA request
July, 28, 2007

Hello,

I am writing in regard to your June 29, 2007 statement concerning the impending WTC 7 collapse analysis report.

Firstly, in your earlier report, NIST stated that it would examine hypothetical blast scenarios and their possible contributions to the collapse of WTC 7.

Secondly, Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, of UC Berkeley, who examined some of the steel from the WTC under a grant from the National Science Foundation stated on October 16, 2001, that he saw steel from WTC 7, which appeared "paper thin" (like melting ice on a lake in the Spring), and "evaporated” (through sulfidation). He stated that he did not know what could have caused such intense heat in WTC 7, but that the source certainly was not from things such as burning office furniture. He had never seen anything like it before.

My question is: Have you studied Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl's analysis regarding the "paper thin" effects on the steel (or sulfidation)?

Also: Since the "paper thin" effect (or sulfidation) may very well have contributed to the collapse of WTC 7 by weakening certain key columns, have you included this as part of the so-called “blast scenario” or as part of another scenario to describe the structural demise of WTC 7 in the upcoming 2007 report?

The exclusion of such data as collected by the National Science Foundation will only continue to raise certain questions regarding the validity of the NIST examination.

Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you,

[FeO]

P.S.: A reporter from the New York Times wrote to me stating that I should ask NIST for access to photos and video taken of the WTC 7 south side lobby areas. I specifically am referring to photos of the “WTC 7 Division” triage area inside WTC 7 at 9:30am on 11 Sep 2001. Additionally, I seek photos from the upper and lower lobby areas of the south side of Building 7 (interior lobby triage and exterior evacuation from the south side) from any time during the day of 11 Sep 2001. These photos and videos will help scientists, insurance adjusters, law enforcement, rescue workers, and general historical researchers to better understand the demise of that particular structure.

Posted by: NF911 Jul 29 2007, 10:56 AM
user posted image
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Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jul 29 2007, 12:11 PM
NF911 POSTED THE FOLLOWING PHOTOS WHICH ARE NOT THE ONES WE SEEK HERE. The photos and videos we seek may corroberate or dismiss the eyewitness testimony given by the presently anonymous witness interviewed by the Loose Change crew.

WHAT WE ARE SEEKING ARE THE PHOTOS AND VIDEO OF THE SOUTH SIDE UPPER AND LOWER LOBBIES EXCLUSIVELY. WE ARE SEEKING THE PHOTOS THAT WERE TAKEN OF THE WTC 7 DIVISION TRIAGE CENTER SET UP AT 9:30AM ON 911 AND THEN EVACUATED. WE ARE SEEKING THE PHOTOS AND VIDEOS OF THE SOUTH SIDE CLOSE UP FROM THROUGHOUT THE DAY.


Your first photo is of the NORTH SIDE of Building 7:
user posted image

Your second photo is also of the NORTH side:
user posted image

Your third photo is by Spak; LEFT photo is of the WEST SIDE with smoke shown emanating from the south side (Note the smoke pouring from WTC 5 and 6 are obscured (not shown here), but are available in other photos. RIGHT photo is by Spak and show the North East side of the building with some fires:
user posted image

Your fourth photo shows a view from above. The north side of the building is shown as well as the roof. The south side is not shown, but I suspect the helicopter probably took shots of it (not published), and not the infamous ABC news video from a distance.
user posted image

Your fifth photo also shows the north side, although an arrow points to the "scoop out" on the south west corner.
user posted image

Your sixth photo shows the east side (north east view):
user posted image


THE PHOTOS YOU HAVE DISPLAYED ARE WELL KNOWN AND AMPLY PUBLISHED. WHAT WE ARE SEEKING ARE THE PHOTOS AND VIDEO OF THE SOUTH SIDE UPPER AND LOWER LOBBIES EXCLUSIVELY. WE ARE SEEKING THE PHOTOS THAT WERE TAKEN OF THE WTC 7 DIVISION TRIAGE CENTER SET UP AT 9:30AM ON 911 AND THEN EVACUATED. WE ARE SEEKING THE PHOTOS AND VIDEOS OF THE SOUTH SIDE CLOSE UP FROM THROUGHOUT THE DAY.

Posted by: NF911 Jul 29 2007, 12:50 PM
just some photos that i found but mostly everyone knows that they said they "pulled it" that came from john kerry,the owner of the building ,and NYFD. which means if they blew that building up that they also did the other ones.Noone can plant the explosives in less than a day to bring down a building.Not to mention that they said the building had fell 10 mins before it actually did.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 1 2007, 07:02 PM
OK NF911, but I want to keep us focused here. The existing photos and video of the the south upper and lower , interior and exterior lobbies and entrances of Building 7 are the most important images to this citizens investigation. This is the end game.

This thread is exclusively concerned with locating, obtaining and posting those photos, forwarding them unsolicted to Infowars and to other sources.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 7 2007, 06:42 PM

QUOTE
Date:  7 Aug 10:55 (PDT)
To:  xxx@xxx.com
Subject:  Re: Advisory Board Regarding WTC Building 7



Dear [FeO],



Thank you for inquiry.  With regard to whether NIST has reviewed Dr.
Astaneh's analysis of "paper thin" effects on the steel (or
sulfidation), NIST has not been able to obtain any published reports
of Dr. Astaneh's work to analyze.  The National Science Foundation
does not have the report available on its website and a check of Dr.
Astaneh's own website has a link that goes to a page that states that
the report is still in progress and will be completed in September
2002.  NIST has requested the report from Dr. Astaneh directly, but
has not obtained any reports on Dr. Astaneh's analysis.  Without such
a report, there is no "analysis" to study.



NIST did request of Dr. Astaneh that it take custody of the samples
of steel that he had identified for further study as a part of his
NSF-funded data collection effort and his permission was
received.  Those specimens were brought to NIST for study and are
included as a part of the steel inventory and identification.  None
of the samples set aside by Dr. Astaneh would be described as "paper thin."



NIST has taken great care to positively identify the origin of all
samples of steel used to draw conclusions or inferences.  The origin
of the steel that Dr. Astaneh refers to as "paper thin" is not
known.  Observations such as "paper thin" (like melting ice on a lake
in the Spring)", and "evaporated" provide no technical information
that can be used in the NIST investigation.



The only piece of steel that NIST is aware of that could be
characterized as "thin" and was recovered for study was that reported
by the Building Performance Assessment Team in "World Trade Center
Building Performance Study:  Data Collection, Preliminary
Observations, and Recommendations" (FEMA 403).  That steel is from a
section of beam (by its proportions) and is of unknown origin (not
positively identified).  The thinning of this specimen was reported
to be a result of "high temperature corrosion due to a combination of
oxidation and sulfidation." It was not possible to determine whether
the steel beam underwent the corrosion process before or after
collapse.  NIST has not used the corrosion of a beam (not column)
that occurred at an unknown time to assert a link with a "weakening
of key columns" as part of a blast scenario.



With respect to postscript requesting access to photos and videos
taken of the WTC 7 south side lobby areas, please send your request
to the NIST Freedom of Information Act Office.  Instructions for
submitting requests under the Freedom of Information Act may be
obtained from the NIST website at http://www.nist.gov/admin/foia/foia.htm.



Sincerely,



WTC Investigation Team

Posted by: waterdancer Aug 7 2007, 08:42 PM
I wonder if this might be something like what they were looking for?

http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf

http://www.webcitation.org/5QveY9qQW


Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 8 2007, 08:04 PM
Yes, if someone could kindly convert the photo on page 11 of Dr. Astanah's report and post it here (convert the entire doc to word format and lift out the picture), I will forward it to Dr. Jones and other for analysis.

It is the photo on page 11 labeled by Dr. Astanah as:

"Most probably from Building 7."


In the mean time, I'll try to get a comment from Dr. Astanah, and perhaps more photos. As far as the WTC 7 south side Lobby photos are concerned, I'll draft a FOIA to get them. I will post everything here, and send to Infowars, etc.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 14 2007, 06:25 PM
QUOTE
National Institute of Standards and Technology
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx FOIA & Privacy Act Officer
100 Bureau Drive, STOP 1710
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-1710

Re: Freedom of Information Act Request 
August 12, 2007
Dear Ms. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
This is a request under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. Sec. 552. I request that a copy of the following documents be provided to me:
· Photographs and applicable video (in jpeg, mpeg or another format) of the south side upper and lower lobby (inside and outside) of WTC Building 7 taken throughout the day on September 11, 2001. These would be the photos and video taken in the immediate vicinity of the WTC Building 7 south side upper and lower entrances. 

· Photographs and applicable video of the “WTC Division” triage area, which was active at 9:30 am on September 11, 2007. http://www.dps.state.vt.us/homeland/fdnylessonslearned9-11.pdf

· Photographs of the upper and lower south side lobby areas (interior and exterior) of Building 7 after the collapse of WTC 2, then after the collapse of WTC 1. Note that NIST described the lobby area of WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 1 as having “no heavy debris” with a “white dust coating.”  http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/June2004WTC7StructuralFire&CollapseAnalysisPrint.pdf

· Note regarding responsiveness to this request: Photographs may be redacted as necessary and still may be responsive to my request. Note that photographs alone may be responsive if video is not also available, and video alone may be responsive if still photos (redacted or not) are not available.
In order to help to determine my status to assess fees, you should know that I am an individual seeking information for personal use and not for a commercial use.   
I request a waiver of all fees for this request. Disclosure of the requested information to me is in the public interest because it is likely to contribute significantly to public understanding of the operations or activities of the government and is not primarily in my commercial interest. I asked a reporter from the New York Times for copies of the responsive photographs from the Times archives if they were available. The reporter stated that I should request the photos from NIST. The photographs hold very significant historical value.
Thank you for your consideration of this request.


 

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 18 2007, 05:48 PM
NIST response letter:
user posted image
user posted image

Edit: Scrivener's error fixed for this copy-corrected for appeal.

Posted by: dylan avery Aug 18 2007, 06:08 PM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Aug 18 2007, 10:48 PM)
user posted image
user posted image

Amazing. Do you think you'll get anything?

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 18 2007, 06:13 PM
Well, of course. We are handling this by the book and we are asking truly concise questions. We'll be writing directly to the Assistant General Counsel for Administration within 30 days for a waiver of any fees pursuant to the statutory standards. The first step is to get an inventory of the responsive data, then to retrieve it for public, educational and historic purposes. For example all relevant photos (redacted or not, if applicable) should be available at the Library of Congress as part of the historical record. The data can be available digitally to all historians. We certainly have met the standards as set forth on page 2 of the document (not posted for now).

Posted by: jfk Aug 18 2007, 06:20 PM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Aug 8 2007, 09:04 PM)
Yes, if someone could kindly convert the photo on page 11 of Dr. Astanah's report and post it here (convert the entire doc to word format and lift out the picture), I will forward it to Dr. Jones and other for analysis.

It is the photo on page 11 labeled by Dr. Astanah as:

"Most probably from Building 7."


In the mean time, I'll try to get a comment from Dr. Astanah, and perhaps more photos. As far as the WTC 7 south side Lobby photos are concerned, I'll draft a FOIA to get them. I will post everything here, and send to Infowars, etc.

I just did a capture and save, will this work ?

user posted image

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 18 2007, 06:22 PM
Yes, thanks. I'll zip this over the Professor Jones and NIST.

Posted by: jfk Aug 18 2007, 06:29 PM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Aug 18 2007, 07:22 PM)
Yes, thanks. I'll zip this over the Professor Jones and NIST.

You are very welcome. wink.gif

Posted by: Repentless Aug 18 2007, 08:01 PM
In a letter I just sent to inquiries@nist.gov:

QUOTE

Hello,

I am contacting you today to request the release of NIST photos and videos of the upper/lower lobbies of World Trade Center 7 after the WTC 1 strike, after the WTC 2 strike, after the WTC2 collapse, or after the WTC 1 collapse; specifically the south-east side of World Trade Center 7.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology is in possession of the aforementioned media, which they have refused to release despite multiple Freedom of Information Act requests, due to the excuse that they will not release photos and videos from this angle due to the fact that their investigation is not yet complete.

I am very keen to know the legal grounds on which this excuse is based. The NIST does not have a copyright pertaining to any of this media. Under 17 U.S.C. § 105, a this should be available. A work prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government as part of that person’s official duties is public domain. The NIST is an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce.

Thank you for your time,

Gilbert Gregg

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 18 2007, 09:23 PM
Nice repentless, You do realize your letter is going to the general inquiries, so I'm not sure if they'll respond, but please do post any replies. Thanks.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 19 2007, 01:34 PM
I need a verifiable list of all federal entities and their activities regarding search and rescue in and around the south side of Building 7 on 911.

Thanks, and provide the cites to official sources. For example,

FEMA present at WTC 7 triage at x time. Source:XXXXXXXX

Posted by: Repentless Aug 19 2007, 02:10 PM
I'll get you that list when I get back from the beach.

And they have NO legal grounds for holding those photos. It's against the law, according to the code mentioned in my letter.

EDIT: Where should I send it to if not general inquiries?

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 19 2007, 02:53 PM
Thanks, I also need to know that the photos will be widely published such as on Prisonplanet, Infowars, etc. I must know the stats as to how many folks view those sites, because it may be considered a narrow group under the statute, and the New York Times. The publication cannot be to a narrow group.

Also, I need specifics regarding the emergency activities of the FEDERAL agencies in the south side and lobbies of WTC 7. This is to meet certain criteria of the statute, so work with me here.

What specifically, with cites occurred?
How will the information benefit the public (at large) to know ?
How would the requested information provide that significant knowledge?

I am paraprasing here, but we really need the information to meet the criteria.


Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 20 2007, 06:42 PM
repentless, send it to this guy as well.

michael.newman@nist.gov

Posted by: Repentless Aug 21 2007, 01:36 PM
QUOTE (Ferric Oxide @ Aug 20 2007, 06:42 PM)
repentless, send it to this guy as well.

michael.newman@nist.gov

Sent. Didn't get a reply from general inquiries, can't wait to see what I get (or what I won't get) from this guy. wink.gif

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 22 2007, 09:13 PM
More confirming data for emergency activity around WTC 7 lobbies for purposes of the statute in question--Waiting for list of responsive photos. However, please post federal activities and emergency response data. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF THE FORMER COMMISSIONER OF THE NEW YORK CITY OFFICE OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT RICHARD J. SHEIRER OPENING REMARKS BEFORE THE NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES May 18, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An example of OEM’s role on 9/11 was when EMS began setting up a triage area for the injured in the lobby of the North Tower. Working with EMS, we determined that we should move the triage area from the North Tower lobby into the lobby of 7 World Trade.

It was important to keep the tower lobby clear for the fire and rescue operation and the civilian evacuation, and to locate the triage where it would be most accessible.The operation in the lobby of the North Tower was professional, controlled and organized. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the second plane hit the South Tower, we felt an explosion in the North Tower lobby, but at first we did not know what it was. I was immediately notified over the radio by the EOC about what had happened. Almost instantly after the South Tower had been hit, I contacted the EOC to confirm that air support was on its way to New York. At that time, the EOC informed me that that there were still planes unaccounted for that may have been heading for New York.

I relayed this information to the command post in the North Tower lobby. At the same time, OEM evacuated the EOC. The rest of 7 World Trade Center had been evacuated earlier, but after the report of a possible third plane, we had to get our people out of the building.

I received a radio transmission from FDNY Captain Joe Folino, an OEM responder, who informed me that the Mayor had requested that I join him and Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik at 75 Barclay Street, where they were establishing a temporary executive command center. I left the North Tower lobby and went to Barclay Street.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 26 2007, 05:38 PM
OEM Initial Response
By 8:48, officials in OEM headquarters on the 23rd floor of 7 WTC-just to the north of the North Tower-began to activate the Emergency Operations Center by calling such agencies as the FDNY, NYPD, Department of Health, and the Greater Hospital Association and instructing them to send their designated representatives to the OEM. In addition, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was called and asked to send at least five federal Urban Search and Rescue Teams (such teams are located throughout the United States). At approximately 8:50, a senior representative from the OEM arrived in the lobby of the North Tower and began to act as the OEM field responder to the incident. He soon was joined by several other OEM officials, including the OEM Director.

OEM Response
After the South Tower was hit, OEM senior leadership decided to remain in its "bunker" and continue conducting operations, even though all civilians had been evacuated from 7 WTC. At approximately 9:30, a senior OEM official ordered the evacuation of the facility, after a Secret Service agent in 7 WTC advised him that additional commercial planes were not accounted for. Prior to its evacuation, no outside agency liaisons had reached OEM. OEM field responders were stationed in each tower's lobby, at the FDNY overall command post, and, at least for some period of time, at the NYPD command post at Church and Vesey.

At 9:46, the Chief of Department called an additional fifth alarm, and at 9:54 an additional 20 engine and 6 ladder companies were sent to the WTC. As a result, more than one-third of all FDNY companies now had been dispatched to the WTC. At about 9:57, an EMS paramedic approached the FDNY Chief of Department and advised that an engineer in front of 7 WTC had just remarked that the Twin Towers in fact were in imminent danger of a total collapse.



Posted by: Repentless Aug 27 2007, 01:16 PM
Finally got a reply. You can see the email I sent them above. This is what I got back:

QUOTE

Good afternoon Mr. Gregg,

Your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request was received at the NIST FOIA
Control Desk on August 20, 2007.

We are unable to process your information request as submitted.  If you wish
to pursue your request, please describe as best as possible the records or
documents you are requesting.  FOIA does not require agencies to respond to
requests by creating records or outlines in response to questions posed as FOIA
requests.  (See, e.g., Zemansky v. EPA, 767 F.2d 569, 574 (9th Cir. 1985);
DiViaio v. Kelley, 571 F.2d 538, (10th Cir. 1978); Barber v. Office of Info. &
Privacy, No. 02-1748, slip op. at 4 (D.D.C. Sept. 4, 2003).

A FOIA request can be made for any agency record that is not publicly
available.    For your convenience, FOIA information can be viewed from
http://www.nist.gov/admin/foia/foia.htm.  Other helpful FOIA information can be
found at: http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/index.html.

The FOIA, which can be found in Title 5 of the United States Code, section 552,
provides that a person may obtain access to federal agency records, except to
the extent that such records are protected from public disclosure.  The FOIA
does not, however, provide access to records held by Congress or the federal
courts, by state or local government agencies, or by private businesses or
individuals.

Thank you,
NIST FOIA Control Desk


What should I send them? I don't know how to draft a FOIA request, that's your area of expertise tongue.gif

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 27 2007, 06:57 PM
Hang on, I should be getting the inventory list soon. I have a little over a week to prepare an appeal, that I might need to use (Sep 11, 2007). Stay tuned.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Aug 29 2007, 07:22 PM
user posted image

Above: Note the number "7" on the entrance door. South side Building 7 lower lobby entrance, probably before WTC 1 had collapsed, based on analysis of the Vesey street Bridge below--and taken during the same video sweep.

user posted image

The above photos (along with all others presented) are presently available news still off video. These are not the data that NIST is presently compiling and creating an inventory list for pursuant to the statute.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Sep 22 2007, 07:11 PM
Appeal regarding south side lower and upper lobby WTC 7 information acknowledged. The next step is to receive the inventory of data from NIST, while simultaneously awaiting the analysis and reply from the Department of Commerce. The two events (requesting the photo and the appeal) needed to be overlapped do to the short time for appeal.

user posted image

Posted by: chris sarns Sep 23 2007, 02:47 AM
Way to go

Keep us posted

Chris



Repentless:

Here's the NIST FoIA website. It explains how to submit a request.

http://www.nist.gov/admin/foia/foia.htm

The people at NIST FoIA are very helpful.

The site gives the phone# and Catherine [or someone] will actually return your call.

Posted by: waterdancer Sep 24 2007, 05:31 AM
I wonder if NIST has any security camera footage from any of the cameras at various locations along Vesey?

Such as any of these three, for instance?

user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Sep 24 2007, 07:59 PM
The scope of the request would include such video, if it is in the possession of NIST.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Oct 6 2007, 08:56 PM
Quick update: The appeal is still pending, and we await the inventory list of photos and video of the south side of Building 7--close up--upper and lower lobbies--during the entire day of 911--including before and after the collapses of each of the towers. (the list must be produced according to the statute). As of now, there is no need to proceed to court as this is an administrative matter. The disc (with data) will be widely published upon release.)

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Oct 7 2007, 05:34 AM
Finally found some images from the southside of WTC 7 after the first collapse.

For reference here's a before pic from the front of WTC 7:

user posted image


This is from underneath the promenade. You can see the columns and the arrangement of the overhead lights match the pic of WTC 7 before the collapse:

user posted image

Interesting the ATF guy sure was on the scene pretty early

Here's the link to the website for the original pics. There are few more there that you might be interested in.

http://www.libertynews.org.nyud.net:8090/wtc/pic01085.html


Edit: Deleted some images, since it turns out these are dupes. Sorry about that.

Posted by: waterdancer Oct 7 2007, 05:51 AM
QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Oct 7 2007, 10:34 AM)
Finally found some images from the southside of WTC 7 after the first collapse.

For reference here's a before pic from the front of WTC 7:

user posted image


This is from underneath the promenade. You can see the columns and the arrangement of the overhead lights match the pic of WTC 7 before the collapse:

user posted image

Interesting the ATF guy sure was on the scene pretty early


user posted image


user posted image

user posted image


I would assume these next three are still WTC 7:

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image


Here's the link to the website for the original pics. There are few more there that you might be interested in.

http://www.libertynews.org.nyud.net:8090/wtc/pic01085.html

Pictures no show up. Can't locate them on the site either...

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Oct 7 2007, 07:19 AM
DoYouEverWonder: Those are all stills from video as broadcast on ABC and BBC (with the exception of the first photo, which is a stock exterior Vesey bridge photo from before 911). They are of the outside lower lobby--They are presently available and are mentioned in the appeal as such. This is the only video of the lower lobby presently widely available that I am aware of. Note that there are no upper lobby entrance photos or video (close up)--south side--presently available. The only glimpse of the rear part of the interior upper lobby is when the man in the back pack (pictured above)sprints up the stairs to speak with another guy. This is also mentioned in the appeal--as available already. We are seeking presently unavailable video and stills and are waiting for the inventory list.

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Dec 9 2007, 11:40 AM
Request update from NIST:

To:XXXXXXXXXXXX
Freedom of Information Act Officer
United States Department of Commerce
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899


XXXXXXXXXX

December 9, 2007

RE: STATUS REQUEST FOIA Log #07-76

Dear Sir or Madame:


I request an updated status of my Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). The requested data is set forth below and is included in a certain fee waiver appeal, which was acknowledged by the Assistant General Counsel for Administration Office on September 17, 2007.:

Initial request for data:

· Photographs and applicable video (in jpeg, mpeg or another format) of the south side upper and lower lobby (inside and outside) of WTC Building 7 taken throughout the day on September 11, 2001. These would be the photos and video taken in the immediate vicinity of the WTC Building 7 south side upper and lower entrances.

· Photographs and applicable video of the “WTC Division” triage area, which was active at 9:30 am on September 11, 2001. http://www.dps.state.vt.us/homeland/fdnylessonslearned9-11.pdf

· Photographs of the upper and lower south side lobby areas (interior and exterior) of Building 7 after the collapse of WTC 2, then after the collapse of WTC 1. Note that NIST described the lobby area of WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 1 as having “no heavy debris” with a “white dust coating.” http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/June2004WTC7StructuralFire&CollapseAnalysisPrint.pdf

Note regarding responsiveness to this request: Photographs may be redacted as necessary and still may be responsive to my request. Note that photographs alone may be responsive if video is not also available, and video alone may be responsive if still photos (redacted or not) are not available.

I understand that courts have generally sanctioned a practice of handling “backlogged FOIA requests” on a “first-in, first-out” basis. Furthermore, it is my understanding that “the department of Commerce has a decentralized FOIA system and each bureau/administration may use two or more processing tracks to distinguish between simple and more complex requests.” Therefore, I request that you please identify the processing track for FOIA Log #07-76, and provide a general status of my request.


Moreover, I understand that Executive Order #13,392 states in part that FOIA requesters are “seeking a service from the federal government and should be treated as such.” In particular, there is an “overall policy”, which allows requesters to inquire “about the status” of an FOIA request. In light of Executive Order #13,392, I respectfully ask for an update of my Freedom of Information Act request.

_________________________________________________________________
1-The United States Department of Commerce acknowledged receipt of my letter in their correspondence, which was dated August 15, 2007 and is attached hereto.
2-See, osec.doc.gov/omo/FOIA/foiarequest.htm#response.
3-See, Exec. Order No. 13,392, 70 Fed.Reg. 75,373 (Dec. 14, 2005).

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Dec 23 2007, 10:15 AM
This is the update request regarding the FEE WAIVER APPEAL, which is separate and apart from the initial request for information above.

To: Assistant General Counsel for Administration (Office)
United States Department of Commerce
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXX

December 23, 2007

RE: STATUS OF FEE WAIVER APPEAL FOIA-Log #07-76

Dear Sir or Madame:


I request an updated status of my Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) fee waiver appeal, which was acknowledged by the Assistant General Counsel for Administration Office on September 17, 2007:

My initial request for data to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) included the following:

· Photographs and applicable video (in jpeg, mpeg or another format) of the south side upper and lower lobby (inside and outside) of WTC Building 7 taken throughout the day on September 11, 2001. These would be the photos and video taken in the immediate vicinity of the WTC Building 7 south side upper and lower entrances.

· Photographs and applicable video of the “WTC Division” triage area, which was active at 9:30 am on September 11, 2001. http://www.dps.state.vt.us/homeland/fdnylessonslearned9-11.pdf

· Photographs of the upper and lower south side lobby areas (interior and exterior) of Building 7 after the collapse of WTC 2, then after the collapse of WTC 1. Note that NIST described the lobby area of WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 1 as having “no heavy debris” with a “white dust coating.” http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/June2004WTC7StructuralFire&CollapseAnalysisPrint.pdf

Note regarding responsiveness to this request: Photographs may be redacted as necessary and still may be responsive to my request. Note that photographs alone may be responsive if video is not also available, and video alone may be responsive if still photos (redacted or not) are not available.

I indicated to NIST that courts have generally sanctioned a practice of handling “backlogged FOIA requests” on a “first-in, first-out” basis. Furthermore, it is my understanding that “the department of Commerce has a decentralized FOIA system and each bureau/administration may use two or more processing tracks to distinguish between simple and more complex requests.” Therefore, I requested that NIST identify the processing track for FOIA Log #07-76, and provide a general status of my request.


Moreover, I understand that Executive Order #13,392 states in part that FOIA requesters are “seeking a service from the federal government and should be treated as such.” In particular, there is an “overall policy”, which allows requesters to inquire “about the status” of an FOIA request. In light of Executive Order #13,392, I respectfully ask for an update of my Freedom of Information Act fee waiver appeal.

The fee waiver appeal (dated September 10, 2007 and acknowledged on September 17, 2007) is attached for your review.

XXXXXXXXXXX
/s/

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jan 5 2008, 08:48 AM
The second wave of follow up requests will be sent out this week. Presently, the fee waiver appeal is under review and the photographic data is also under consideration, compilation and review. I will post all responses and scanned data here first.

Posted by: chris sarns Jan 5 2008, 09:08 AM
I take it you still have to wait until the 12th of never when the final report is released before you can actually get the pics and vids.

I let my request lapse rather than put up the $139 [or what ever it was]

Good call, that was last May.

Thank you for persevering.

Happy New Year.

Carry on.

Keep us posted.

Chris

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jan 5 2008, 09:32 AM
I'll get them (the data). I'll step up the process in a week. However, right now NIST must:

1- Provide the data (with redacted portions if necessary), or

2- Provide an exemption for not supplying the data along with a list of how much related data is involved. (This would verify the presence of said data.)

3-Provide reasons why such data can not be provided with redactions. It is required that data (or portions) of data be redacted rather than applying an exemption to the whole lot.

4- The fee waiver appeal is a separate issue, which will be taken to federal court if necessary. In 1st circuit federal court, the judge will consider all information I have provided in the appeal--that I have not yet posted here. The appeal restates the requested data and meets all standards and tests under the FOIA appeals process. Courts presently treat such appeals under a standard more favorable to requesters.


Note: We already have video of the condition of the lower south lobby of Building 7 after the collapse of the south tower. The lower lobby was not visibly damaged. The related video (the entire unedited video) would be part and parcel of the request. This presently published video shows the fellow in the back pack sprinting into Building 7 and running up a halted escalator to speak with another man in the south side upper lobby, who was already there.

There are other media videos (such as an interview in front of that area), along with triage photos and video and other data of activities in and around the south side upper and lower lobby throughout the day on 911. This is all encompassed in the initial request and in the reasoning for the fee waiver request (pending).

Posted by: chris sarns Jan 5 2008, 09:49 AM
They don't have a thumbs up so

food-smiley-004.gif

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jan 14 2008, 05:46 PM
Both the Assistant General Counsel for Administration (Office)
United States Department of Commerce and NIST have been contacted again. I requested a status update of Log #07-76 a/k/a (SOUTH SIDE LOBBY-UPPER AND LOWER-INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR-WTC BUILDING 7-THROUGHOUT THE DAY OF 911, AFTER THE IMPLOSION OF WTC2 AND AFTER THE IMPLOSION OF WTC 1).

Posted by: Ferric Oxide Jan 17 2008, 10:03 PM
RESPONSE FROM Assistant General Counsel for Administration (Office)
United States Department of Commerce REGARDING THE FEE WAIVER PERTAINING TO south side photos and video of building 7 upper and lower lobby--interior and exterior--throughout the day of 911---after the collapse of WTC2 and after the collapse of WTC1.



QUOTE
Mr. xxxxx,



Your fee waiver appeal is currently being processed.  We expect to have a response out to you within the next two weeks. 



xxxxxxxxx

Senior Counsel

Office of the General Counsel, General Law Division

U.S. Dept. of Commerce

phone: (202) 482-xxxx

fax: (202) 482-xxxx

e-mail: xxxxxxxxx

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