This topic is for the discussion of my third test run of Seiken Densetsu 3.

Well, I'm taking the easy way out. I decided to go with Hawk, Lise & Angela. Since I'm probably not going to see her magic at maximum power during an actual LP with her, I figured I might as well try it out now. I also have come to think that Wanderer would probably be better support for a physical party. Thus, I'm going to use the easy party of Arch Mage, Ninja Master, & Star Lancer.

I made it through the Cave of Waterfalls and picked up Angela back at Jad today. I'm wondering how I should level her up for her stat gains. Obviously, the three big stats for her are Vit, Int, & Spr. This is reminiscent of the problem I've had using Dark Hawk: she has three stats she REALLY wants to work on, one of which is required for her to learn spells. Ideally, for most characters, you want to pick two big stats, then a third as a fallback only when those two are blocked off.

In Angela's case, I would go with Spirit > Vitality > Intelligence. Up through the Ghost Ship, the majority of enemies are weak to Wisp, which makes Spirit the way to go. I strongly feel that Vitality MUST be second priority, regardless, so that she doesn't get wailed on. I can then increase Intelligence, instead of Spirit, whenever I procure the appropriate spirit, so she can learn the next spell.

That's how I look at it.

I'm not an expert, but isn't there a limit to how many spells one character can learn? If so, wouldn't it be prudent to hold back on her intelligence until the first CC, because it'll max anyway. As far as I remember from a recent playthrough with her, she doesn't really need Spirit either before then. In fact, I believe how I did it was I would raise her Intelligence, because I went down the Delvar --> Magus path and then I had Vitality as the 2nd thing I raised up. Then her spirit on levels where she could neither raise INT or VIT. From my experience with her you shouldn't have incredible problems focusing on those 3 stats. Also, is Spirit related to her learning spells? She learned all of her tier 1s with me puting Vitality and Intelligence as a priority. I didn't think that spirit mattered for Angela.

Spirit affects how a character deals with holy magic. That is to say, your magic defense against holy-elemental magic and how much damage you can deal with your own holy-elemental magic. Remember that Angela learns Holy Ball first, and it is affected by Spirit. If it is indeed the case that a lot of enemies early game are weak to holy, then it would make sense to emphasize her Spirit.

That said, Intelligence is important also because, for starters, I believe she has to raise it to at least 7 in her base Magician class before she will learn her elemental spells (possibly except Holy Ball). Her Intelligence also affects how much damage these non-Holy Ball spells do. This could come in handy for say, Tzenker, who is weak to Angela's Diamond Missile.

I've never heard anything about a limit on the number of spells one can learn.

I forgot about Tzenker. I was thinking more about Gorva, because I have a hard time hitting it a lot more. Still, perhaps it might be worth considering switching Intelligence and Spirit.

You'll probably gain a few levels between the two bosses, so you can focus on Intelligence until Tzenker, and then boost her Spirit afterwards. Just a thought.

Have You Chosen Your Team For The Lp And The Guidelines You'll Be Having While Play?

It is very highly likely that my brother and I will do 3 full separate LPs with three different teams, so we can cover each of the three paths through the game. I have yet to decide who I want to use for each LP. The items at the Byzel Black Market will be banned.

Speyeker, that's a good idea about going for Int, then Spr. I could probably gain a level or two at Rolante to get some Spirit for the Ghost Ship, where most enemies are weak to Wisp (duh). I'll think some more about it.

Yeah, I often try to "live in the moment" when thinking about distributing my stats rather than "thinking long-term". Basically, think about the next major snag you're about to face and which stat(s) could best deal with that situation. Not necessarily a boss, but even a tough dungeon could count.

Also, remember that on the Ghost Ship, the only "Golden Goddess Statue" (well, not really) is at the very beginning. So you can't recharge your MP through the dungeon without using a Faerie Walnut (or an Angel's Grail, if you really want). So you may want to think carefully about using your MP on the ship when it might be best saved for Gorva itself. If you did end up using Holy Ball in the actual dungeon, I imagine you'd probably use it on the most threatening enemy there...which I guess are the Ghouls?

You know, I find it really interesting that immediately after you finished your second run you started on your third! This rarely happens--especially now, when FFVIII is nearing the end and you're still not that far into your third FFIX test run. I get the feeling you really enjoy Seiken Densetsu 3. Of course, unlike a lot of the other games you LP, playing SD3 multiple times is not merely "the same experience but with the player more knowledgeable". It's a new party each time, so it's...well, I wouldn't say a WHOLE new ball game but a partially new ball game. I definitely get that feeling myself as well. There are just so many different ways to play the game, and thus so much replay value....

I was originally planning on playing something else between each SD3 test run, but I'm sufficiently ahead on my other projects to stick with it for now. I don't want to get too far ahead on Lufia with a second test run until I actually start the FF9 LP, and I don't want to start my DW3 test runs until I'm done with the Link's Awakening LP.

I took a deeper look into elemental weaknesses. The Corridor of Wind is the ONLY area where you will have a significant advantage of investing in INT, instead of SPR early on until after the Ghost Ship.

HCBailly, if you and your brother will be playing together will he also make commentary?

Yes, it will be just like how we handled the Secret of Mana LP. I'm unsure of the technical details, though. Our schedules are much more stable now than back then, so it's easier for us to get together to record. However, I don't think I like the idea of using a single microphone to record the game sound, my voice, AND my brother's voice. I'm thinking of getting microphone headsets for the both of us. Then, I could record all three sources separately, and integrate them in the editing process. If my brother's voice is too soft, I can amplify it alone, which I could not do by recording everything from one microphone. This may also be useful in tuning the process for recording LPs for modern games, since I would need to record them directly from the console itself.

Given how far ahead you are on this, I get the feeling this will debut right after the GB Zelda games and the Dragon Warrior games, right?

Are there any secrets in this game? I got pretty far (with some walk through help when I needed it but lost my save file)

Yeah, I'm aiming to be able to start the first LP after finishing Dragon Warrior 3, though I can't promise it, of course.

The only secret I've found so far is the Black Rabite, since there's no indication of its existence, to my knowledge. Everything else seems fairly straight-forward.

The Weapon/Armor seeds are sort of secretive, but you'll usually find at least one without trying.

I did some quick testing with Angela today and discovered that it's really not necessary to put much into Spirit at all. At 6 Spirit, she can already one-shot anything weak to Wisp, almost up through the Ghost Ship already. Now, I think it's much better to invest in Int > Vit > Spr, since I'm probably going to be forced to put some into Spirit, anyway. After the Ghost ship, almost nothing is weak to Wisp for quite some time, making Int a better long-term investment.

Haha, I can go on believing I am sane for one more day :D

Well, she obviously can't one-shot Gorva. If you put a lot into her Spirit, that battle will seem like nothing. Of course, since this comes at the cost of Intelligence and Vitality, it could make other parts of the game much more challenging, as you said.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that it would be worth it to focus heavily on Spirit, just for Gorva. Spirit is actually a perfect 3rd tier stat. Certainly nice to have when the other two stats are locked out, but not critical to her offensive and defensive potential.

I successfully repelled the invasion of Forcena today. So far, I'm really liking Angela. Even against enemies with no elemental weakness, if I can get her to hit three enemies at once, that's 200 total damage for 2 MP. It seems like a well worthwhile investment. Of course, she's rather useless for bosses without an elemental weakness once she runs out of MP, and even more so for ones with counter attacks (LUGAR!!!). It's too bad that so many enemies are resistant to Gnome right now, but I'd still rather invest in INT right now, since this part of the game is rather easy compared to when INT will be far superior.

So who did you start with--Lise or Hawk? Just curious. And I'm assuming you put Angela as your third character, unless you wanted a real challenge for the Full Metal Hugger.

I thought her Magician class can't multi-target spells. It's been awhile though, so my memory's a bit foggy.

EDIT: Never mind, I was wrong.

I started with Hawk for this one.

I made it through the Corridor of Wind today. Holy cow, Angela is amazing! I would almost dare say she breaks the game, but then again, any character can with the right party. She's clearing screens left and right. When you know the right elemental weakness, she's a HOUSE! Tzenker was similarly much easier than in previous test runs. It's nice to know that all those hours I put into the Bestiary are paying off.

And all you have so far are two spells from her (well, three after the Corridor), and with no buffs. Nice. That is the nice thing about having Angela, though--you actually do feel rewarded when you get each elemental spirit, just like in Secret of Mana. Otherwise, it only feels like it matters plotwise.

Angela rocks hardcore in the early game, yes. By the end she's generally lower tier than the others, but if you focus your team correctly, any character can be awesome.

I got through Rolante Castle and had a blast going through there. I thought maybe having Angela with Hawk & Lise wouldn't work too well, because they all do different things. However, she really complements the team very well. Even if she can't finish off the enemies, she deals so much damage that the others can finish off the remaining enemies very easily. It's interesting how even though my parties have gotten supposedly weaker in each subsequent test run, I'm having an easier time with each one too.

On a completely unrelated note, I remembered a story from several years ago. I think it was right around when Final Fantasy Origins came out, delivering our first official taste of FF2 to us. So the only one that hadn't been release here was FF3. I remember hearing a rumor that they were going to make another Playstation collection including FF3 and SD3. Of course, that was completely false, and I was enormously pissed off when I found out. Still, that would have been pretty cool.

So you've gone through the two bosses there? Hmm, well, I don't think Angela would be too helpful for Bill & Ben unless you don't mind doing massive healing after each instance of her casting a spell. And as for Genova, she can't take advantage of its elemental weakness at this point, so that's kind of a shame, although I imagine her magic is still pretty useful, even if just for getting rid of the Shapeshifters.

I just found a complete translation of the original manual that came with the game. While most of it is probably stuff we already know...you never know. For instance, I didn't know about the functions of the L/R buttons.

http://www.kenoshaonline.com/sd3mnl.htm#SD3%20Manual

One thing about this game is, nearly any class can feel like the break the game if done right, so don't let something that seems too easy dissuade you. Because you will find another character which you didn't use previously probably has a set up that's the same way.

I believe I used Angela, Lise, Hawk to some degree in preperation for the Black Rabite. I had a really backward set up but I won skidding by on the seat of my pants.

Good luck! Looking forward to seeing this LP.

I rather like Angela. I almost always include her in my party. Purple hair, ya gotta have it! I love making her into a Magus for Ancient. That spell is ridiculous. I've yet to try her light classes.

For ??? seeds, maybe Unknown Seeds would be a good name?

Or special seed?

Enigma Seed rolls off the tongue for me.

I got Salamando and class changed today. Everything is working out great so far. I do have a few questions about these events.

1) With Angela in the party, might it be better to wait until getting both Undine & Salamando before getting up to Level 18?

The idea is that she can learn their spells before class changing. Instead, since I'm further ahead on levels, it will now take me two more levels before I can learn all of her new spells. I'd still say no, because between now and when those new spells would be really useful, she'll have gained enough levels to learn them all anyway. Plus, that would add even more grinding to the mid-game.

2) With Angela in the party, might it be better to go for Undine first, instead of Salamando?

Unlike Duran learning Thunder Saber for the Machine Golems, Angela will certainly not learn Air Blast by then. Not to mention, they counter magic and L2/3 Techs, IIRC. So there is no specific advantage to class changing with Salamando. Not to mention, between the much longer Desert of Scorching Heat and Valley of Flames, there are four enemies weak to Undine; whereas, only three enemies in the Sub-Zero Snowfield (I love ice areas) are weak to Salamando.

Again, I still think it's better to go for Salamando first. The difference of one enemy being weak to a new element isn't that big of a deal. I think the biggest difference is in considering the bosses. Bill & Ben have more attacks that will get multipliers if you class change with Undine first. However, the Machine Golems only have their initial attack and will only use magic as a counter, so they're not as hard after class changing. I know we're splitting hairs here, but you get the idea.

3) What do you think about skipping the new equipment at Mintos?

One problem I noticed in the mid-game is that I start running out of money. Primarily, because you have Mintos, Diorre, & the middle town consecutively selling the next tier of weapons & body armor, with relatively small areas in between to get the money. Maybe this problem will be resolved by how I plan to spread out the grinding more, but if it came down to it, I think skipping Mintos is the best idea.

There are two reasons for this. First, the Moonlight Forest is relatively short, and so is the trip to Diorre. Second, I don't plan on doing any grinding there, because the enemies only increase in Level by 1 in the next area. Whereas, between the Lampflower Forest and the Mana Holyland, the enemies increase in Level by 3, so I would probably want to do some grinding there, and get the money for the middle town's equipment.

4) Should I just go straight through the Moonlight Forest, or do some massive exploring there?

I'm also trying to take the LP into consideration here. It's quite easy to make it through the forest to Lugar very quickly. Typically, I like to intentionally explore every dead-end to minimize the grinding later on. Usually, that only ends up being a couple screens per area and wouldn't significantly slow down the LP. However, the dead ends in the Moonlight Forest are very long and would take me way off course. In this case, I think it would be best to skip the long dead-ends there.

Part of the challenge of playing the game is finding out which tiers of equipment you think would be reasonable to skip, since yes, you really don't have money for everything. Mintos' equipment does sound like a good one to skip, given that it's not too long until Diorre, as you said, as well as the fact that Lugar is a pretty easy boss as long as you don't use magic or level 2 techs on him. Just note that when you get when you get to the Lampflower Forest, if a Lady Bee casts Power Up on herself, RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN FROM HER. Her Vacuum Surge Spear nearly wiped out my party even with the equipment from Mintos--since you won't have that equipment, you might not even come out too well from that tech even without her casting Power Up on herself beforehand.

I know from experience that skipping the equipment at the Village of Dark Priests is a very bad idea.

Skipping the longer parts of the Moonlight Forest isn't a big deal. That place is pretty small anyway, and I don't think the monsters give a great amount of experience anyway.

For the most part, I don't think any grinding is necessary at this point in the game unless you really want to learn a specific spell before a specific boss. For instance, if you have Light Lise in your party, and you're at Level 21 and about to face the Gildervine, you might want to get up to Level 22 so that you can have Power Up for the fight.

I think when deciding whether to go for Salamando or Undine first, the fact that three enemies in the Snowfield are weak to fire versus four in the Desert/Valley weak to ice is completely insignificant when compared to these other factors:

--Bosses
--Dangerous enemies (Swordmasters and Ninja Masters, really--neither of which are weak to anything)
--Locations of save points/healing spots

At this entire part of the game (i.e. the whole Salamando/Undine sequence) the Swordmasters are BY FAR the most threatening thing out there, considering both enemies and bosses a like. In fact, just to be safe, you might want to consider farming some Harpy's Fangs at the Corridor of Wind just to get by these guys. Buffs/debuffs could work too, I guess.

Somehow, I forgot to mention my Volcano Island Bucca experience. When I got there, I was at Level 13. I remembered that the enemies in the Seashore Cave were pretty tough, up to Level 17. So, I decided to do some minor grinding to at least get up to Level 15 to make the cave more manageable. There's a lovely loop of screens just southwest of the village, virtually eliminating downtime beyond returning to the village to restore MP periodically. I took care of the grinding within 15 minutes and it made the cave MUCH easier.

Not to uhh, sound confrontational or anything, but you're really stuck on the Harpy Fangs aren't ya? In my experience you can get past any enemies fairly easily without any sort of magic. Just set your AI's to assist you or each other, and maybe zap a target you want dead fast with a single target magic spell. I've never used debuffs or buffs for normal enemies. Not once in any part of the game, and I've never had trouble. I'm also never overleveled until I need those durn Enigma Seeds. @.@ They never drop, and then when they do it's always the class I don't want at that time.

Yeah, Swordmasters are annoying. Good thing I have Water Jutsu. I can't imagine going through the mid-game without that, Power Down, or some form of crowd control.

I made it to Diorre today and bought both sets of equipment along the way. Spreading out the grinding is really helping out a lot with the money problems before. I even grinded up to Level 22 before leaving the Moonlight Forest, so I'm in pretty good shape. I'll grind up to Level 25 before leaving the Lampflower Forest, so I'll be ready for the mid-game.

Of course, using Water Jutsu or a debuff would likely provoke the Swordmaster to use Vacuum Sword anyway. It doesn't hurt as much with the debuff on it, but then again, you could end up defeating them the normal way without them using anything at all. So it's a tricky situation. And TLaG's guide says that aside from countering techs/spells, they use it if they take a lot of damage in a short amount of time. If that indeed is true, then simply spreading out the time you deal the damage to him would solve the problem, wouldn't it?