This topic is for discussing my second test run of Dragon Quest 5 for a future LP. For this test run, I'll still be playing the DS version of the game.

I've made quite a few changes to my approach to the game. First, I'll be marrying Nera, instead of Debora, and see how functional Kafrizzle will be. Second, I'll be recruiting some uncommon monsters, to better fill out my party. Third, I'll obviously be a lot more organized this time, now that I better know what to expect, and what monsters I'll be using long-term. Finally, I'm going to try to spread out the grinding, instead of doing it all at once, to be at the appropriate levels for recruiting monsters.

As of this post, I just made it through Uptaten Towers. I decided to purchase a Leather Armour for Abel, which I did not before. It's a very minor point, but originally, I thought that I didn't want it, since I couldn't hand down the Wayfarer's Clothes to Bianca. However, by finishing off Level 7, I had the money for the Leather Armour anyway, and it only took me 3 additional minutes of grinding, so I think it's worth it. There's no point in getting anything for Bianca, other than hand-me-downs, since she won't stick around for very long.

Thanks for the discussion.

For me, all I bought was a Copper Sword for Abel and waited until Faerie Lea to upgrade my armor. Is it just me, or does this game make you very conservative about spending your money?

You can get away with very little grinding, but I like sprinkling a little here and there, just to make life easier. You pretty much need Kasap to defeat the Haunted Housekeeper, anyway.

Once you get to the mid-game, I never found money to be a problem, even for my monsters. I was easily able to afford Top Hats and Tortoise Shells for them, despite previously planning on skipping them.

How did you like the Sesame Street "The Count" reference in the 1st generation, HCBailey? :D Even added the little Count laugh haha!

Wait, I thought Abel was the name of the third generation kid... no wonder I was confused.

Anyway, now that you're on the second test run, I'd better get cracking on the 2nd generation of my play through the SFC version. By the way, in that version, Bianca does have something the cat can equip, so I transferred her stuff to him.

There's the names.

What version of the game are you using for this playtest? Is it the DS version again, or are you using the PS2 version this time?

Look at the first part of the first post of this topic. ;)

Any thoughts on the best location to recruit a Healslime? The problem I had before was that around Fortuna, the only way to get a Healslime is from being summoned by a Bag o' Laughs. Infact, being summoned in the only way to encounter Healslimes for a very long time. I'd guess that the number of Healslimes in a battle doesn't really matter. However, the Bags are pretty uncommon, maybe meeting one every 5-10 battles. With a 1/32 recruitment rate, that makes it pretty hard to get one here. However, it would last me through to the end of the game, so I think it would be really nice to have one.

They're really that rare to find and recruit? I seem to get one without going out of my way almost every playthrough. Huh. :huh:

I just tried to recruit a Healslime for half an hour and couldn't get one, so I'm done trying that. The monster system is just so broken in RPGs it's not even funny. I think I'll just go back to using the purely common monsters. The only problem is figuring out what to do about healing late-game. No common and otherwise useful monster learns Omniheal. Perhaps I should give Multiheal more of a chance, though I'm not too fond of the Orc King.

It's broken in this game, where it takes tons of luck to get even relatively simple monsters. Other games (SMT and Pokemon in particular) do it way better.

That happened to me too while playing DQV yesterday. The only place where I could find the Healslime was at the Abovitall Tower, and it appeared in only one battle formation. So after running around there for about an hour and running into a Healslime a couple of times, I gave up on it. At least it gave me a opportunity to level grind for the Powie-Wowie, which I was able to recruit quickly.

As for having someone with the Multiheal spell, the Chimera does learn it at level 18, and you do have a better chance of recruiting it (1/16), plus you can run into them around Mount Magmageddon quite often.

I'm probably going to have to rethink how I want to handle monsters. There's three problems that I had in the first test run that I'm not sure how to resolve.

1) I can't deal enough damage. All the good damaging abilities are on rare monsters. For example, having multiple Kafrizzle users would be really nice, in addition to the wife. However, all the monsters that learn Kafrizzle are either rare of learn it at a very high level. The same goes for C-C-Cold Breath.

2) I can't heal well enough. I got lucky during the final battle, as I was completely drained of MP, even with Madchen constantly using the Sage's Stone. Having an Omniheal or Multiheal user, in addition to Parry, would have been really nice. However, that's just one battle. Omniheal suffers from the same problem that Kafrizzle does. While there are a couple common Multiheal users, they both have very limited uses outside of that. Orc King might work. I'd like to have another backup healer outside of battle to conserve MP. Maybe the Slime Knight.

3) I don't think humans are good enough on their own. Let's say that I used a full human party of Abel, Parry, Madchen, & Nera, so as to avoid the problems of recruiting rare monsters. What do I do during the final battle? Miracle Swords are probably the best options for Abel & Parry, but even with Oomph, that's only 100 damage per round, if that. Nera could use Kafrizzle, and Madchen would be constantly using the Sage's Stone. I'd run out of MP too quickly without good monsters in reserve. However, all the good ones are rare.

I think what I'm going to do is rely on as few monsters as possible, and save the Elfin Elixirs for the final battle.

The monsters I'll use are Dracky, Rotten Apple, & Slime Knight. Golem is nice, but requires grinding to reach Level 25 to recruit him. Plus, he's not THAT much better than a Slime Knight, who can also serve as a backup healer and equip a Miracle Sword. Similarly, Moosifer is probably better than a Slime Knight, but requires grinding to reach Level 30 to recruit him, and does nothing else useful.

If I use the Elfin Elixirs during the final battle, that may solve my problem. I'll use a full human party, with Slime Knight in reserve for emergency healing. Double Oomph should help get around the Disruptive Wave problem. Nera/Bianca can use Kafrizzle. Madchen can focus on using the Sage's Stone when she's not casting Oomph.

I hate to kill the monster mechanics of the game for the LP, but it's just too tedious to recruit the really good ones.

If you have room, try bringing along at least sancho, have him gain levels in wagon (similar to taloon) and only give armor stuffs. You can always use him as a Kerplunk tool for healing/reviving. I think he has a healspell too, but It's been awhile since I used him... that wouldn't be bad though for outside of battle healing.

And if more room, just throw in Tuppence. Decent attacker and can absorb some hits perhaps; just give him mutilple weapon types to take advantage of scenarios (Miracle sword if any left, Zombiebane, Dragonbane, Demon Spear for random battles otherwise). The only problem with him that may interfere with your playstyle is that he has a slow start. Sancho offers more use since his natural high hp, whistle, and kerplunk skills.

EDIT: Actualyl what may be problematic is... I don't know what level sancho learns Kerplunk! I can't seem to find anything via google search, I just know on a file of mine, Sancho has it... (but I overleveled him). That may make his usefulness much less useful if it's a rather high level spell...

@HCBailly

Sorry about the slowness of this reply, I just got back up. I broke my toe earlier and I've been trying to sleep through the worst of the pain. Doesn't feel too bad right now, but I'm certainly not going to be walking for a couple of days.

With regard to your previous post: You brought up Oomph in it once again, so I figure this is the best time to mention this:

Oomph was also apparently nerfed in the PS2 and DS versions of Dragon Quest 5.

In the SFC version of 5; Oomph, Paxa Punches, and the War Drum all double your attack power (The same as Oomph does in the rest of the series)

In the PS2 and DS versions of 5, the above items/ability only raise your attack power by 1.8 times, effectively making them 10% weaker. That might not seem like a lot, but it's still 10 points of damage lost for every 100 points of base attack power, so it does matter for the late game/post game battles.

With regard to your most recent post: Unfortunately, that may end up being the best course of action. The more I look in depth at the remakes of 5, the more I wonder quite what Square Enix was thinking.

They unfortunately seem to have nerfed things that didn't really need nerfing (Such as Buff/Kabuff and Oomph), while leaving the rather unbalanced and tedious recruitment system of the SFC version totally alone.

I'll try to dig further to see if I can find any way to salvage the large scale usage of monsters, but I'm honestly pretty stumped at this point.

I never had problems with the Monster Recruiting myself, but then, I have a lot of patience.

When making an LP, I try to balance what is most efficient and replicable, without being abusive, if I can help it. Of course, I don't always succeed, and what is most efficient has a tendency to be borderline abusive. In this case, I feel that grinding for 15-20 minutes is reasonable to expect someone to be able to replicate themselves, so they can have the best equipment, as I have. However, I don't feel that most people (including myself) have the patience to grind for hours to recruit one monster, so it's not as replicable.

This is also part of how and why I make my videos. The whole point is to introduce new games to people who may not have liked them at first, and show them a different approach that may make the game more fun for them. By minimizing grinding in a game that would otherwise require immense grinding, like Disgaea, I could make the game more appealing to new players. Obviously, we'd prefer every jRPG to simply have a perfectly smooth experience like Chrono Trigger, so that we don't have to FORCE the game to be fun, but that doesn't always happen. There's a lot of games that, while perhaps not appealing to the casual fan, may be more appealing when approached from a different perspective.

@Gilder Thanks for the info. I hope you get well soon.

I think the big problem is the lack of Sap. That was such a huge nerf to melee against the late-game bosses. I understand that they want them to be tough, but when there's only one common means of dealing 200+ damage, let alone 100, that's a huge problem.

Here's my party I used for a few runs, in terms of monsters, for a bit of reference. These are not the monsters I picked up, just ones I used. These are also monsters used until...roughly 3/4 through the game or so.

Bianca Run: Slime Knight, Brownie, Ticking Timeburrm, Goodybag, Funghoul, Rotten Apple, Flamethrower

Nera Run: Slime, Brownie, Rotten Apple, Restless Armour, Pocus Poppet, Slime Knight

Debora Run: Slime, Slime Knight, Brownie, Small Fry, Rotten Apple, Restless Armour, Pocus Poppet

As you can see, all three have a few commonalities and all these get the job done quite easily.

Well that's why I've always had more issues with the War Drum in the DS version. <_<

Sorry you're having a hard time with the monster recruitment HC but I just recruited a Liquid Metal Slime which is a 1/256 recruitment rate. That's 2 monsters with that same recruitment rate that I currently have. :P

I've defeated the Faux Dowager today. I'm quite content with my Abel, Rotten Apple, Slime Knight, Dracky party. It provides enough variety for the mid-game, until the late-game, when the humans will mostly take over. It's a classic variety vs. grinding dilemma. Do I grind more to have more variety, or do I sacrifice variety to mitigate grinding? In this case, I favor the latter, since the recruitment grinding is so extreme compared to the value received. In the case of Radiant Historia, I favored micro-grinding, by going out of my way to fight every enemy, in order to promote variety of characters and showcase more abilities, since it didn't take very long to do.

I just did a bit of math, and I'll say that the numbers are in your favor for less grinding/less variety. Assuming it takes 5 minutes to find the monster you're looking for/beating the battle needed to recruit, it would take (on average) between 80 minutes (1/16 monster) and 21 hours (1/256 monster). Easy monsters and human characters should be more than enough; that's what I used for my playthrough and I still had fun playing the game.

But the those numbers have one fatal flaw, the RNG is exactly what it says. For any monster at any recruitment it got take a minute or multiple days.

You're welcome. Always glad to be of help.

By the way, speaking of Sap, that appears to have incurred a nerf of sorts between the original and the remakes, as well.

I just checked the monster resistances for the SFC version, and the Sap resistances of some of the tougher monsters appear to be lower or outright nonexistent.

For example, Nimzo is immune to Sap in all four phases of the Final Battle in the PS2 and DS versions. In the SFC version, Nimzo has no resistance to Sap in the first, second, and fourth phases of the battle, and slight resistance to Sap in the third phase of the battle.

It really is head-scratching that the remakes appear to be less balanced and well thought out than the original game in the case of 5, when 4's remakes were so improved compared to the original, in comparison.

The only guess I can venture as to why this is the case, is that the game designers felt that having a fourth party member available during battle might be somewhat game breaking and so they attempted to increase the game's difficulty in order to compensate for that.

Unfortunately (Been saying that a lot lately, unfortunately :lol:), they don't appear to have play tested either of the remakes enough before they released them; because what they took for increased difficulty is far more akin to increased tedium, since forced grinding for levels to learn abilities, or to recruit rare and difficult to acquire monsters, appears to be the only solution that they left in for the balancing problems that they created.

It's really is a pity that the SFC version is so aesthetically primitive, since it's looking better and better on the gameplay front every time I look deeper into the workings of it. I don't know how much more balanced it would truly end up being, since having only three party members in battle might make more of a difference than it appears to at the moment, but it certainly looks like it's the clear winner on the balancing front at this point in time.

You may want to check it out sometime in the future, even if it's not as a point of reference for the LP, since it could serve as an interesting case study of how re-balancing can go wrong in a remake.

All this research is really making me wish that they had just added the extra content, and the ability to have four characters in battle at once, to the remakes and then just left the rest of the game alone, since they really do appear to have done more harm than good on the gameplay front.

Oh well, they can't all be winners, I guess. It's still a great game, regardless. It's just not as great as it could have been.

Well, it makes sense that Nimzo is immune to Sap. If he wasn't, the boss fight would be too easy. Sap makes every fight pretty much too easy.

While one could argue that Sap is a bit cheap, they really didn't provide enough in the way of alternatives to warrant limiting its use so greatly in the remakes.

The problem is that they appear to have substituted tedium for difficulty in the remakes. A long, drawn out battle is not necessarily a fun battle. Don't get me wrong, I love epic attrition battles, but taking the Ghaleon "Kill you by bleeding your MP dry level of attrition" approach is something that should honestly be used sparingly in videogames.

Speaking of which, I need to finish the last bit of the Comparative Analysis over in the Lunar thread with Ghaleon vs. Ghaleon and a brief comparative overview of the games, but I'm feeling pretty tired right now, so I think I'll wait until tomorrow.

Eh, I never had a problem with defense in DQ5, except for maybe Bjorn, but I guess you do have a point.

Just wanted to apologize, I was wrong about Sancho learning Kerplunk. I could have sworn he did, but I just looked into my game again and it's not there. I muse have mixed it up with kamikaze or perhaps the hero's kerplunk.

That said, him not having kerplunk makes him rather less useful. I suppose if there are areas where enemies are quite susceptible to kamikaze he could be fun to use, but likely just not worth it. If only buff/kabuff wasn't nerfed in this version; it'd be a nice little extra at least.

I was fighting Bjorn today, and it hit me that of all of the Dragon Quest games that I've played (haven't played VI yet), he is the only monster/character that has a Norwegian accent.

I've been forgetting to update you guys here. I'm currently about to head to the Knightmare Towers. I never used Nera during the second generation part. Hopefully, she will be more useful in the third generation with some grinding. This may be a good reason to use Bianca, as she will be useful immediately in the second generation with little to no grinding needed. Plus, she will require far less grinding for the end-game. Otherwise, everything is going as planned.

I decided that until the end-game, breath protection is more important than magic protection, so I went with the Tempest Shields over the Magic Shields. If magic really becomes a problem, I could just use Bounce. Plus, until the end-game, very few bosses use attack magic I'm worried about, so I'm going to go with max breath protection for now.

And I've just got around to escaping from slavery in gen 2; I really need to sit down and get some serious play time in.

One of the nice things about having a Slime Knight in your party is its natural defense against breath attacks. With Insulatle, he's basically invulnerable to them.

On another note, yesterday I realized for the first time that Dr. Agon was a play on the word Dragon. I guess I was too caught up in his Ned Flanders-esque way of talking to notice. <_<

HCBailly how soon do you plan on taking down Bjorn? I normally beat him after rescuing my wife.

HCBailly, is this game going to be a main LP or a side LP?

Also, do the human characters in this game have equipment they can call their own, stuff that is unique to them?

I am looking forward to this one!

I remember him saying that it was more likely for DQV to be a side LP than a main LP, but I may be wrong so don't take my word for it. As for exclusive equipment, yes, there is some. The Hero's son has the Zenithian equipment, and the Hero has Pankraz's sword. I think there are a few others, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

While fighting King Korol today, I noticed that when he uses his Disruptive Wave, the next turn he seems to always use his C-Cold Breath attack. It was a good thing that I had Parry equipped with the Meteorite Bracer so that he could cast Insulatle beforehand.

Yeah, the only other thing he can do after Disruptive Wave is cast Bounce.

King Korol's AI pattern from the Bestiary, for those curious who don't want to have to go through all that effort to look it up:

C-C-Cold Breath (Cold Breath) (120-140 Damage) or Bounce -> Desperate Attack (Attack*5) or Defend (1/5) -> Kaboom or Disruptive Wave

As an aside, if anyone was curious as to where I've been for the past couple days, the answer is:

Configuring a new computer.

I say "a" new computer because this computer isn't technically for me. The Linux computer that I've been using up till now has been in a more public place than my own room. This new computer is intended to replace that one, with the old computer becoming my personal dedicated computer.

The new computer just seems to hate Linux, for some reason or other, so it's been a bastard to get it running properly on it, but I think I'm finally done after nearly two days of work.

So, as of tomorrow, no more "Gotta switch computers, be right back" silliness. (Which means no more having to use the Windows Computer for the most part, either :) )

Well, gonna go to bed for now. Got something I've gotta do tomorrow that's totally unrelated to the above. Shouldn't really be busy after that, so I should be on some time mid-late afternoon or early evening.

See you guys then.

Does anyone know the best level-grinding spots before and after gaining access to Nadiria? I really know nothing about the subject and was rather inefficient the last time I did so. Obviously, I'm looking for Liquid Metal Slimes or King Metal Slimes, if possible.