I've been wondering whether the faithful could sing the Our Father with the Priest, or say it with him when it's a low mass.

It happened many times with the FSSP, it depended on which priest it was.
I wondered if it was allowed with John XXIII's missal. As the Confiteor can be suppressed, can the Our Father be sung along as well?

As far as I know, the only day when the congregation say the Pater Noster along with the priest is Good Friday.

There was (maybe still is) an Indult/Motu Mass that I used to attend occasionally near Skipton (Broughton Hall) where the priest was very keen for the congregation to join in.

I'm a "cradle SSPX-er" and I've never come across this, in any sung Mass it's just the priest who sings the Pater Noster, and the laity never respond to any prayers during low Mass normally, except those after Mass for the Conversion of Sinners/Russia. That said, I've never experienced a dialogue Mass.

Probably a modern tendency, as in the New Mass the Our Father is sung, even if the mass is celebrated in Latin.
The FSSP priest was very keen on it.

I think by being bi-ritual, many priests get confused with both rites, however the FSSP is anti Paul VI's mass. This is why I cannot understand this.

Anyway I never saw that in a SSPX chapel.

How odd, I was reading about this last night (bedtime reading!)

It was actually first allowed in 1958 under Pius XII (a month before he died and when he was gravely ill), by the Instruction De Musica Sacra. Not made compusory until 1965, when the Pater Noster and the whole Ordinary of the Mass could also be said in the vernacular. Both well before the New Mass in 1969 but part of Bugnini's changes leading up to it.

In 1958 four levels of the Dialogue Mass were allowed:

1. Just short responses like Amen, Et cum spiritu tuo.

2. Joining in the server's responses (including the Judica me and the Confiteors).

3. Saying the Ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, etc.) and the Pater Noster with the priest.

4. Also saying the Proper (Introit, Gradual, etc.) with the Priest.

Nos. 1 & 2 had been allowed by Pius XI since 1922, but were forbidden in England, except by permission of a bishop, at least until 1940 and probably later. The laity were felt to need better instruction!

The Confiteor before Communion and the Leonine Prayers were forbidden in 1962, but the SSPX re-introduced them!

I've also never been to a Dialogue Mass in England, either SSPX, Latin Mass Society or Motu Proprio. But it's normal in SSPX Masses in Europe. They usually don't include the Judica Me and the Confiteors, although I've seen it done in Belgium. (I have a horrible feeling the Scots might go in for Dialogue Masses!)

But the Pater Noster is NEVER joined in with at Traditional Masses anywhere, as far as I know. It's surprising about the FSSP priest. People might get lynched in England if they tried it. Even Fr. Schmidberger, in his recent "modernizing" of the Mass in the German District, hasn't gone that far.

Another Bugnini change from 1955! Seeing if he could get away with it there before trying to get it into the Mass.

Thanks for the very precise answer. The FSSP priest is a modernist, he invokes Blessed John Paul II after mass and often omits the Leonine Prayers.
I've been told it happened very often in the US especially in Indult masses where the faithful are used to singing the Our Father as they do so in Paul VI's mass in Latin. (e.g. in bi-ritual religious communities)

In France, Jouques monastery is an example of that, they are bi-ritualist benedictine nuns.

We always sang the Our Father at High Mass at the FSSP parish I used to attend.

This is actually wrong. The Confiteor before the laity's Communion was abolished in 1962, as part of the move to merge their Communion with the priest's (exaggeration of the priesthood of the laity, etc.), but the Leonine Prayers were abolished by Paul VI in the Instruction Inter Oecumenici of 1964, to be applied in the 1965 liturgy - the first post-Vatican II changes. "The Last Gospel is omitted, the Leonine Prayers are suppressed."

The Leonine Prayers are not for the conversion of Russia, but for the Catholic Church in Russia. Their suppression fits in with the pro-Orthodox, Ostpolitik policy during and after the Council.

Now I got the answer to my question. It's actually the 1965 missal that allows the Our Father to be sung and to stand up after consecration for a high mass. A lot of ED communities do so and I was wondering why.

The SSPX only used the 1962 missal or former ones.
I also learnt that a read mass isn't the same as a low mass. The former forbids the faithful to reply to the priest, only the altar servant can do it.

Joining in the Pater Noster, either said or sung, has been allowed since 1958, but isn't done at SSPX Masses, or at ED Masses in England, as it is one of the Liturgical Movement's innovations, made to reduce the role of the priest and allow the laity to take a greater part in the Mass.

Standing after the Consecration (and for most of a Low Mass apart from the Communion) was encouraged by the Liturgical Movement from the 1920's in France, Belgium and Germany, as part of their theories that the laity offered the Mass together with the priest in a "public, community celebration" (so they stood like the priest). Kneeling was discouraged, as they associated it with "private prayer and devotions", which they didn't want people to indulge in at Mass!

Of course, the laity can do exactly what they like at Mass, as long as it isn't disrespectful.

It's sad that the ED groups do these things, as they are not neutral. The liturgical "experts" who promoted them were often Modernists and the theories themselves tended towards the heresy that the priest and the laity share the same "priesthood" and the priest "presides", is the "president" of the assembly who are offering the Mass with him. These ideas later led to and were expressed much more openly in the New Mass.

Unfortunately, the SSPX have introduced standing at a Low Mass in their seminaries in France and Switzerland and Germany, and also for the laity in Germany. It's perhaps no coincidence that the districts of the SSPX that are now showing the most liberal tendencies are those which have a very "modernized" liturgy.

I haven't heard of a difference between a Read Mass (messe lue?) and a Low Mass (messe basse?), as both are called a Low Mass in English. Since 1922 the people can make the responses at all Masses, although at first it was only supposed to be at a "Mass with a congregation", but the distinction quickly disappeared. Perhaps that is where this comes from.

There's at least one FSSP priest I can think of (a Frenchman, and quite senior) whose sung Mass on Sunday appeared to be the 1965 missal.

That said, it was only a couple of times I saw it, and that was 10 yrs or so ago...

Gabriel, I don't see what you mean about seminaries. what do they not do so in parishes if they do so in SSPX seminaries?
They never stand after consecration in French parishes anyway, not even in sung masses. I only saw it with some ED communities.

:sorry:
This is just my opinion. I understand the concern for modernism in the changes. But I ask to what end ? The Low Mass, as we have it, is from Pope John XXIII, and Pope Pius XII, my fave Pope, allowed for the Pater Noster to be sung by the faithful. Pope Pius XII is my fave, cause I'm a Pope Pius XII kid. (tehehe). I was weened on the Low Mass in it's several iterations; Cantata, Dialogata, et Recitata. We as childen were encouraged to follow along and respond. This made it obvious to us that those little First Communion Remembrance Missals were of very little use.

This propelled us to in some way, except stealing, to get a St. Joseph Daily Missal. Vistas opened up for our little minds. It moved little priest wannabes like me to learn the Latin, while the Music teacher taught us to sing , and our little souls then mimicing the sung parts. Mimicry is the highest form of praise.

Fast forward to today. The Low Mass is virtually inaudible depending the Society, Country, and Priest. I attribute this to the rubrics which say in essence that the versicles should be audible to the server. This is taken to mean inaudible to anyone else. It doesn't say that. Because tradom in teeny tiny there are usually two Masses on Sunday, one the Low Mass, and a High Mass. Judging by people's posts the High Mass is prefered, and the Low Mass is considered not the equal, seemingly in the hopes it will fade away the day after the Novus Ordo.

For me and for future Catholics, I hope it does not, and it becomes audible again. I hope the priests teach the responses, and the ordinaries, and how to sing them. I also hope the Pater Noster is chanted again, like Pope Pius XII allowed.

tim

That is interesting, Studiumecclesiae. This May Fr. Schmidberger published a long piece in the SSPX German Newsletter, which mainly consisted of a translation of a French article by Fr. Michel Simoulin, a former Rector of Econe, who advocates standing, dialogue Mass and a lot of "active", outward participation. So I assume this is what is done at Econe. Being in a seminary, the students have to do all the actions together. When I last visited in 1984 they had a wooden clapper to tell them when to stand, kneel, etc.

Basing himself on this article, Fr. Schmidberger has now introduced standing throughout most of a Low Mass for congregations in Germany, so I assume they will be doing this in the German Seminary as well. He says these are "Directions of Pius XII", although I've never heard of them. He also makes a distinction between people who are "actively particating" and who have to follow these rules, and those who are present "out of devotion", who can do what they like. It seems likely that this idea comes from the seminary rules, where the seminarians have to do everything in unison, while other priests and visitors who've just "dropped in" don't have to follow them. But I can't imagine how people will be divided up in a parish using these rules.

It's good if people are kneeling at Low Masses in France. I remember a lot of people standing when we visited St. Nicholas du Chardonnet and French chapels of the SSPX in the 1980's but, being English, we just ignored all that and stayed on our knees!

I have been to Masses in the past with FSSP priests in a parish where the congregation sings or recites the Pater Noster along with the priest and, in my opinion, very few of the faithful can sing it so the faithful should be quiet and let the priest recite or chant it alone.

Whether or not it is proper for the faithful to sing along, I don't know; but, it isn't very edifying when they do.