Canon Sue Report

Agreed. But, on the other hand, elements of "good writing" do include anti-Sue qualities such as "making the abilities of characters plausible" and "keeping other characters' responses consistent". Also, I remember really enjoying an HP story with a character who was a definite Mary-Sue just because of how well it was written (and how much it appealed to certain of my personal tastes). Certainly, warping canon characters and overly gifted original characters and author's favourites are Bad Things, but sometimes Good Things are also there such as writing skill. But in the example you give, I doubt even Shakespeare could've written that Sue well.

I'll take that as a challenge.

I agree with Sarah on the good writing part.

One DB fic I saw had a blatantly obvious Sue (same name as author's pen-name, gold dragon), but the writing was superb, and the characters Sueish traits were kept at a bare minimum (no purple, gasp!).

Speaking of which, I've been going around looking for DB Sues to spork on the Mary Sue LJ community. So far I've gotten two: that one, and the infamous Reignbeau.

Well, this is my first post here so I'm hoping I'm not stepping out of bounds, but here goes: I'm going to pick up the "Artha's a Sue" gauntlet and try to lay down a coherent arguement. I'll preface this by stating that I'm probably more forgiving than most because of the simple fact this is a show aimed at kids.

Regarding Artha's flaws, I'll point out that he seems to be afflicted with the dreaded "PSA of the week" disease that many kid's show characters suffer from. "This week we want to teach kids about teamwork, so Artha's going to be stubborn and try to do everything himself. When he fails, the rest of the group steps in and helps him out. At the end, Artha gives a stirring speach about the value of friendship and learning to accept help from other people." Sound familiar? Many of the flaws that he shows are simply of the PSA variety. They're only there to teach a lesson, and, I would argue, therefore not part of his actual personality. I tend to discount these.

He does have several persistant flaws, though, that get him into regular trouble. He has an easily inflated ego, is somewhat lazy, and frequently selfish. I feel those are a reasonable set of flaws for any 16 year old boy to have. Mind you, I'd like to see the writers focus on his failings a bit more. Maybe show how he has to actually struggle with these tendencies while trying to be the hero. Frankly, I think that would make for some good stories. Beau chose him inspite of these flaws because he has the potential to be a good person (which he generally is).

As for the "Speshul Powerz," I don't think that's a terribly good arguement considering it looks like Parm, Kitt, and maybe Lace will be getting them soon too. Again, I'd prefer to see more difficulty on Artha's part as he learns to use said powers and perhaps see some consequences of using them, but in the scope of children's tv, I can accept it. I'd also like to point out that most of the time, people are telling Artha he's special because Beau chose him, not because of any inherent "speshulness." There's also been implications that Beau could well have chosen another person if he wanted to.

I honestly don't see Artha's racing as cheating, either. The first few episodes of the series show him struggling to learn how. It wasn't an immediate "Hey! He's the best that ever was!" sort of thing. He did spend a lot of time playing (and programming) his racing Vidd game and since his racing rigg is set up to function like those controls, it stands to reason that he would get the hang of it. (Actually, that's a bit of a weak arguement, but seems to be the one the writers chose to use) Still, all through the early series we see him lose because of his own inexperience and stubborness. Later on, I'd argue that it is more his ability to think quickly, creatively, and on his feet that helps him win races. He ususally comes up with a stunt or clever plan to beat everyone else, though Beau is a definite edge (perhaps an understatement).

As for why he didn't go looking for his Dad... I've got no answer for that. It struct me as pretty strange too. I choose to explain it thus: Artha decided to focus on sorting out the future and making sure he and Lance were provided for instead of looking for his father. It may not even have occurred to him until later to do so. People act strangely in crisis situations. His reaction may have been "Oh crap! What are we going to do now?" rather than "We have to find Dad!" Personally, I would've loved a scene between the brothers where Artha has decided that Connor must be dead and is actively choosing to focus on moving on while Lance is convinced he must be alive and is angry that Artha isn't looking for him. Maybe that'd be too deep for Children's TV. Oh well.

I suppose my summary is: I wish they'd made the show for a more mature audience. I think we'd actually get to know the characters better.

Well, I hope that made at least a little sense, and I didn't come off as a complete idiot. I have a feeling this is an issue that we could argue about till I'm blue in the face and no one would sway the other. I just felt Artha could use a little defense (I do like the poor sod).

By the way, Sarah Frost, I read some of your fiction in the Fanfiction section and highly enjoyed it despite vehemently disagreeing with you about Artha. I was well written, nicely paced, and intelligent. I'm very picky about Fanfiction too, so I hope you'll take that as a compliment.

Don't worry; I can take disagreement. Thanks!

As much as Artha would work as a Flawed Protagonist (one of an unpleasant bunch of people in an unpleasant world, so to speak), I don't think he's set up to be. The writers don't seem to notice, sometimes, that he hits people when they're down or thinks bullying is funny when it's not done to you, and his being the Chosen One Of Destiny pretty much makes him a hero-elect by default. So he has to be more than a bratty kid if he's to be in that role--and, well, I don't find him convincing as anything else. The 'heroic' speeches he manages to make are trite, he's got so much power often it's nothing more than his personality dragging him down, and he's generally not fighting against enormous odds. So I really can't see him as any sort of hero, and certainly nobody I'd trust with the power he has.

Artha's Flaw of the Week--well, they're still part of how he's represented, and there's less latitude in doing that to him as it depends on the fundamental premise that Destiny Is An Idiot, but I think he's still got enough unacknowledged flaws.

As for Lance, Kitt and Parm getting powers, they haven't yet and hadn't at the time of my original report (written yonks ago and rather poorly, on reflection). I don't find the argument convincing--one flawed character who happened on strange powers might not be a Sue, but one flawed character who the writers seem to think is the greatest thing since the first caveman beat someone else to death as the punchline of the first hilarious joke with powers-appointed-by-Destiny...might well be. It's doubtful they'll ever be as 'good' as Artha, anyway.

I don't think whatever efforts Artha's scraped up can compare to someone like Kitt or Moordryd or any of the Crew-leaders who have been racing for much longer. That he's 'replaced' Kitt by Destiny's intervention is made really obvious later down the line, where she's just standing around uselessly while he fights or when she's out of the race to the Academy entirely (and he has to save the world again as a result of her entirely unnatural resentment! Woe!).

I guess I can agree with you on the writers dropping the ball (though that may not be how you meant it). As I said, I'd like to see the writers show more of a struggle on Artha's part to *be* the hero. I guess I just don't find him as annoying as most people do, though. I just honestly don't think he's that bad. Oh well. Personal oppinion.

Frankly, I don't really care much for Kitt's character. She's supposed to be tough and spunky, but comes across (to me) as being bossy and opinionated. Which is a shame since I'd sincerely like to see more decent female characters in kid's shows. If I accept the assumption that Artha's a bad character (even Sueish) because of what the writers *don't* do with him, I'd have to feel that Kitt is just as bad. She's not doing anything, as you said. Doesn't that fall somewhat on her too? Shouldn't she get off the sidelines and help? I think that may be one of the big flaws with the show is that the team doesn't really opperate as a team. Parm seems to be the only other one with something to do (as the brains). Lance and Kitt are extraneaous the way they are presented. I'm not sure if the onus falls on the writers to create situations where everyone has a solid part to play or if its just a flaw in the innate group dynamics.

As for Moodryd... (Warning, this is a bit off the topic) As much as I like his personality, I really detest the character type he seems to be destined for: The bad-boy made good. Just a pesonal pet peeve. I might be wrong about him in the end, though. Maybe they won't take that route.

The "powers appointed by destiny" thing just doesn't work for me, though, since I've noticed all sorts of things in the series that point to Artha only being special because of his connection with Beau and not by any innate thing. From what I've seen he's only the Dragon Booster because Beau chose him. Perhaps I've read to much between the lines. I'm willing to admit that. There have been lines about "It's your destiny," too.

I suppose, though, that my biggest problem with your Sue arguement is the assumption that Artha is an unlikable character since I happen to like him just fine. I actually think he's a fairly reasonable depiction of a 16 year old boy (with super powers, of course). I, therefore, have no problem with the writers expecting the viewer to sympathize and identify with him. After that, I don't see anything overtly Sueish, or at least nothing more than I'd expect from the main character of a children's cartoon.

Perhaps this is a case of the Sue being in the eyes of the beholder. I think I'll have to close with that since I've run into the "I just don't agree with you" wall that tends to kill any credibility for a debate.

It seems we might both agree that there's a lot of things that *could've* been on the show but just didn't happen.

Anyway, I appreciate the logical and well formed response to my nonsensical ramblings. I wasn't really expecting to convince anyone, to be honest. I just felt Artha deserved more of a defense than "I like him!" or "He's cute!" Most of my arguement is based more on my gut feeling than anything else. I doubt my gut extends to my brain. I am, however, opinionated and stubborn, so I seem to be unable to keep things to myself. Sorry you have to put up with that. I will certainly conceed to your superior debating skills and readily admit to the glaring holes in my own logic. Feel free to point and laugh at my lack of ability.

I absolutely agree. You might be interested in the thread on sexism in Dragon Booster. Kitt irritates me, because she's nothing more than that SpunkyGirl Generic cliche--and yet she isn't actually spunky, because she does nothing. In Paynn Rising, she spouts some generic Gurl Power line--and gets taken out by Wulph (iirc) shortly afterwards, and she can't intervene in Artha's battles because she just doesn't have the power. He's got all her skills, plus. (And yeah, if she was truly spunky and brave she'd jump in anyway, and we'd admire her for it. An Ace Lightning character, Sparx, is spunky and impulsive like that--and gets to face consequences for it, because the writers there had the guts to be consistent, and besides gave her actual plot relevance that wasn't as anyone's girlfriend.)

If I could rewrite the show, I'd make Word and Moordryd more powerful, downgrade Artha's powers, and maybe transfer the writers' misogyny to the world and claim that women aren't allowed to race in Dragon City, which would mean they could claim to be standing against obvious sexism. And then I'd bring Kitt in as a priest's daughter from somewhere outside Dragon City, sent to Mortis to finish off her own training and act as a companion/bodyguard for the Dragon Booster. That way, she'd be able to take up some of Mortis' exposition duty and have a little more depth to her personality (and probably continue to spout Pseudofeminista badasstica lines, but with a little more justification).

It's pretty much a flaw in the innate group dynamics, IMO--the skills aren't differentiated enough. Artha's got all the fighting and racing skills, and Parm's got the tech, and they really don't need Lance and Kitt in most episodes. They needed to downgrade Artha, or upgrade the bad guys as well as Kitt so that she could actually play an active role more often--and now they seem to be giving Parm green-booster-powers-first. (Which really disgusts me.) And when they do create the odd situation needing all of them, like Return of Drakkus with all three sidekicks carrying out the plan of steal-a-mine-and-chuck-it-at-foe, it comes across as unnecessarily convoluted (in that instance, Kitt could probably have carried out all three parts of it herself, being not incapable of coming up with a battle-related plan, or Parm and Lance on their own).

As for Moordryd, I'm not particularly fond of him--he seems to be treated like Silly Putty, going from bad-boy-with-good-heart to youthful-rival to ultimate-foe depending on what the writers want in the episode. (And it feels like half the episode endings view his humilating defeat as a hilarious and uplifting finish.) He feels a bit spineless to me, though obviously he's got the Daddy Issues and all that, and I suppose that could also be interpreted as 'character depth' in the hands of the right writer. (Also, I don't think he's hawt, which may be part of it.) My bet's definitely on last-minute assistance of DB and Co as the Fifth Colour Of Power And Balance (yawn yawn, puke puke, etcetera).

Okay, that? *points up* makes me want to say FT (Forget That, what, you thought it was something naughty?) to the proposed fourth season write up and rewrite the first season under that premise. I've been thinking about rewriting the first season anyways too...

Lance could be important! Artha could be consistant! Word could be Powerful! Moordryd could be compedant! Pyrrah would be...well she'd be WOW. And the illegal Down City races could get some glamor. If I relate it to a game it could be like...Elite races are the main boss, but there's always a secret dungeon with something even harder hiding in it.

Now that idea, I like. It would really clean up the group dynamics. Kitt would have the knowledge, Parm the brains, and Artha... well, still the "supa-powerz." I keep reading the description of Lance being "as wise as a dragon-priest despite his age" or however they put it. If they treated him that way, I think it would work out a lot better.

I'd prefer to see the chauvanism go away completely, myself, but if its going to get dropped in there, it might as well be addressed in the story. I'm not sure why people have such a difficult time writing believable strong female characters. They all too often stray into shrew-ville and become nagging harpies or ridiculous "gurl-power" feminazis. They become parodies of what is supposed to be an admirable character type. Being female, I find that a disturbing trend.

Overall, the show really lacks series consistancy in how it portrays the characters. I can (or at least I imagine I can) see what the core personalities of the characters are supposed to be (Which is why I still like Kitt and don't really think Artha's a Sue), but they tend to get muddled up depending on how the writers feel they need to act for that particular storyline. It's not an uncommon occurance in kid's shows. It's a shame because I definitely think the show has potential, and I have never understood the "dumb down" approach to children's programming. There's no reason not to produce intelligent, consistant media for kids. But that's another rant... The main storyline and mythology are intriguing, and they could do more with it. The core of the characters, while perhaps being slightly archetypal/stereotypical, is fairly decent. If they'd just stick with them and show some character development (Seriously! They all could use some) I'd be much happier.

This will probably label me as a complete dork, but here goes: I would arange the group dynamics the way I would a group in a roleplaying type game. Artha is the tank. He hits hard and has the super-armor so he can take a lot of hits. He's fairly good at thinking on his feet too. Parm is the tactics guy, your wizard if you will. He comes up with the brilliant plans, creates some unique items for the group to use, and whatnot. Kitt strikes me as being more of a rogue type. She's fast, she's agile, and she's got a lot of experience street racing so she should have more than a few tricks up her sleeve. Kitt is the one who gets in behind the badguys and accomplishes the real objectives, be it the critical strike to the flank or snatching up the dangerous item of the week. Lance... I'm a little stuck on him. He's small, but supposedly wise and probably would play a support type role (probably the priest role). He could assist whoever needs it the most. With a group like that, if any one part fails, someone's going to get stomped. If the tank goes down, the rest of the group has trouble handling the heavy hitting bad guys. If the rogue fails, the objective is not accomplished and everyone is in trouble, etc. The rogue and priest roles are fairly good combatants (no match for the tank, but can hold their own), while the wizard has his "magic" items that he's put together to protect himself. In other word, each has their own role, but can double up if necessary.

Oh, and Word and Moordryd could definitely stand to be more dangerous. It'd make everyone's fear of them much more believeable.

I seem to have dragged this way off topic.

If I/we go Sarah's route maybe only elite racers are where the rule apply?

On you seeing how Artha is supposed to be and thus he is not a sue you like him: I agree. I cannot for the life of me write what's going on inside of Artha's head (when he's not being heroic) and keep him IC at the same time. I mature him into some mutated creature of consistancy and heroic atributes that does not fit into the character as he is portrayed.

Artha as he should be, that we see glimpses of, the core self, is not a sue. Artha as he is in the show is.

I'd be twiting the story line left and right. And, since I don't have a production budget, maybe I'd get them out of the city!

Artha's a bit of a pain to sort out due to all the foolishness the writers have dropped on him. I feel a little bit of mutation is appropriate in the name of consistancy. I've often had a problem with the way writers for kid's shows treat the primary character(s). Like I said before, the PSA of the Week disease is a wide spread and devestating phenomenon.

I'd love to see more visions of what the rest of the world looks like! Are there lots of other cities? Did humanity decide to simply cluster in a few locations? After three thousand years is there still evidence of the war? There's lots of stuff to play with there.

As for women not being allowed to race, if you decide to go that route (Hah! Pathetic racing pun.), I could see them being just barred from the top tiers of the racing circuits. I've always felt that the normal street racing should be pretty gritty/anything goes while the elite class would be more professional and polished. Maybe something like the difference between demolition derby and Nascar. Perhaps more like roller derby.

This perhaps will sound weird but in almost every story I write for Dragon Booster takes place in the same 'world,' diffrent circumstances (universe) though, and maybe a few tweaks. Now you may say, of course it takes place on the same world, you're writting Dragon Booster Fanfic, of course it's all Dragon Booster world.

No, it's not. I have a vague sort of map planned out, the same general history and explinations for the wars (really trippy evil ones of fun at that!). Same dragon biology. I have several breeds of wild dragons in my head; nix that. For get several I have at least ten (right off the top of my head) wild breeds figured out. Social structures for them, habitat, place in the eco system, etc. Farming communities hundreds of miles away from the city. Some mining comunities. Gold-era structures and artifacts inside the OldCity. Edifices from the war, some of which are still working. Bonemarks., security systems...

Yeah I like to world build, so what?

Anyways, the point is that I made up all this stuff partially because I wonder, and mostly for my major fic *points at the banner in her sig,* 8 parts already and it's still the prologue. *sighs*

And all of this is almost completely the same in every fic I write. The same world.

It was recently pointed out to me that I already started rewriting the first season, a reversed first season. It started out as an evil plot bunny of doom (and Infact I titled it something like that), that I typed up messily just to get it out of my head so it's not up to my usual specs.

The thing is, it's not an Alt season. It's a reverse season.

Actually, I'd seen From the Stars before. I do like how you're portraying the characters, though I admit I'm unsure where the story is headed (not really a bad thing, of course). I especially like the fact that Artha's familiarity with dragon breeding is being used (no surprise there, huh?). Most people ignore it completely, but I figure if you've grown up around dragons, you've probably learned a thing or two.

A reverse season, huh? Sounds interesting to me. If you get it cleaned up to the point where you want to show it to people, count me in. I'd like to see it.

As for world building - that's a good skill to have. Pat yourself on the back.

*shunned by bringing back 2 year inactive topic*

You nailed that Canon Sue Report, Sarah!

*shunned for bringing up slight irrelevancy in 2-year-inactive-topic despite gravedigging being allowed*

Out of question, Sarah, or any one of you for that matter, were you responsible for the TVtropes article on Dragon Booster?

Back to topic. PSA of the week gawd I HATE PSA of the week. It's exactly what makes me dislike Artha if I have to dislike him to a degree. I don't give two scales about his powers anymore because technically without Beau or that amulet, he's got nothing, and I've seen too much anime to care anymore. (Heck, watching anime has gone to the point where I think Kitt shows more use and dynamic personality (bossy brat) than the majority of anime female population, shojo included. Bias though.)

But when you give a character flaws that don't seem consistent, things fall apart. For Artha, with these flaws that they have given him, he's coming off to me as a slightly cocky, rebel teenager who was spoiled. (Moordryd probably as well.) As I stated a thread page back, he's kind of a jerk. Of course that's not saying his intentions are good, but we're not using the "in his shoes" argument (which I heavily disagree with disagreeing with).

I think personally, feel free to disagree: most of the disagreement has to do with Artha being called a ~*Hero*~. Many, many times, fans here myself included have expressed how he's rude, incompetent, gullible, smug, impulsive, hits people when they're down, more flaw, more flaw, blah, blah, slight trolling, fanwank, blah. (Please note sarcasm.) Well, if we took away the ~*Hero*~ thing, would be be as hated? Most likely since Finn from Storm Hawks is almost exactly like him and already a few people hate him, but I'm sure then he would be irrelevant because being Hero = being Dragon Booster. If Artha himself stated that he didn't want to be a Hero/he was no Hero (oh wait he did, Chromatic Dragon), or at least that he was just some Vigilante (but the police of course support him), then I wonder if he would be getting as much controversy as now since the fans know his opinion on his ~*Heroism*~.

This person did the DB entry; I don't think I know him.

Utena, Rose of Versailles, Scrapped Princess, Noir--animes that roll off the top of my head with decently written female characters, whine optional but working well with the story when occurring.

I've mostly lost interest in DB, so this is going to be fairly short: if DB was a story about a young privileged white guy being manipulated by his deadbeat father to be used as a tool for Absolute Destined Power, using this power as an unearned advantage, being ungrateful to his friends, not noticing or caring that he's made his love interest powerless, and generally showing personality flaws that make it disturbing that he is going to be the most powerful person on the planet--yes, I think that would be an interesting story, and I wouldn't hate the way the character was written. (I wonder, what problem could possibly stop a scenario like that from being a kids' show? ) However, I think the way the character is written is as someone who the writers think is an overall admirable and deserving person and general centre of the universe, and I think that's pretty well supported by various characters' response to him--when rookie!Artha beats rookie!Moordryd, helpless Academy racers Khatah and Chute thank him for it; when Artha is a dick to Kitt he's the one who ends up saving the day and Kitt the one causing the need for it; when Kitt achieves the exact same thing as Artha in leading the points table above Moordryd or winning a race/relay it's Artha who gets the congratulations.

Finn, in the few eps I've seen, seems to be a character put forward as Irritating Sidekick, so--not the same problem, though I still think he's quite irritating. Also, that team definitely has its redundancies, and he's probably the most redundant character.

Off topic, but I agree with you on the redundancies in Storm Hawks. Quite a few of the characters could be gotten rid of. Storkk stays simply because Scott McNeil is his VA, and is thus awesome.

Yah. Even if it is rather off-topic, I kind of ignore Finn, being the annoying little twat that he is.

Buuuuttt... he still doesn't reach the annoying factor of the great Amazing, Brilliant Artha.

I think somewhere around post-Academy, though, is when Artha actually stopped acting like an idiot. Sue, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure I'd be scared to if I just learned my personal rival was also one of my worst enemies. I've seen far too many Sues in my time away from the forum, and probably have gotten numb to it just to enjoy how the story pans out. Ichigo from Bleach, for example, could be argued as a Stu because of his abilities and amped-up godmawd powahs. I say he's not, but I could honestly care less if I like where the story is going. (Also, I'm getting tired of people joining the OMGSUE bandwagon just to scream OMGSUE and not even knowing what a Proper Sue is. Reminds me of me back in the day. BD;.)

Though I can't say Artha will be less of an idiot once he's into the Academy. Since his character has been established as somewhat of a jerk, it'll probably fit into whatever that season brings us, when/if brought to us.

Off-topic but since it was brought up, something I noticed is how...controversial, the Order of the Dragon Priests and the Magna Draconis seems to appear. From primarily the Alchemist: there are quite a few things that Connor, Word and even Tannis himself do not support about the Order or the prophecies. Breeding the Black and Gold dragon against the Order's wishes is the biggest example, as well as the idea that the blue, green and red dragons were practically mistakes. It's these aspects of a belief or religion that usually make people dislike it: discrimination and controversy. (Before you start heavily opinion-loaded raging about bringing up a taboo subject, I am Catholic and support most of my faith, but that doesn't mean I don't realize why others don't support it.) I mean, in the new day Draconis, humans are very comfortable racing dragons and having different bone classes and uniqueness, and the Magna Draconis and history seems to go against it.

I've gone into trying to support as many characters as I can, based on their role and significance, and the fact that I'm sure there's some amount of thought put into the character, be it a Badly Written One or Not. To me, Storm Hawks could easily get rid of Finn and Junko, but there's the fact that Finn provides as a sidekick, and that would, but not very harshly, impact the story. Junko could be the easily rid of or changed without much impact as well. I will go as far to say maybe even Storkk could, but his legion of fans would rage, and I rather like him as well for a type of character I've hardly seen before.