Did Pastor Carl Stevens teach "the Bible" is our, Final Authority for the name Yahweh?

The text below concerning "The Bible" , being our final authority
was given by Pastor Carl Stevens in an archived message that was played on "The Grace Hour" on July 27, 2009

Thanks to Ironman's memory it is known that a message with the same information was also preached on February 14, 1994:

WARNING: THE TEXT BELOW IS SIMPLY MY SAME OLD MESSAGE GIVEN IN SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WORDS!

QUESTION.

Which "The Bible" did Pastor Carl Stevens use as his Final Authority,
when he dogmatically taught GGWO Christians that God's name is "Yahweh"?

Did Pastor Carl Stevens ever have a Bible other than "The King James Bible" in his hand ('s)
when he dogmatically taught GGWO Christians that God's name is "Yahweh"?

Did he ever use the Roman Catholic "The New Jerusalem Bible" in the Pulpit,
or maybe
Joseph Bryant Rotherham's The Emphasized Bible, in the Pulpit,
as "Biblical Authority" for the name "Yahweh"..

Strictly speaking both of the above mentioned 20th Century English translations of "The Bible"
could have provided Pastor Carl Stevens with Biblical Authority for the name "Yahweh",
although neither of these two above mentioned 20th Century English translations of "The Bible"
could have provided Pastor Carl Stevens with Scriptural Authority for the name "Yahweh

While the English translation Yahweh occurs about 6823 times in both of the above mentioned English translations of "the Bible"
Neither of the above English translations of "The Bible"were translated from Masoretic texts,
in which the Hebrew spelling "Y-a-h-w-e-h" occurs even once!

Daved

P.S.

I definitely believe that it would have been better if Pastor Carl Stevens' teaching that God's name was "Yahweh"
had been based on the Hebrew Scriptures as his "Final Authority,
and not on "The Bible", or possibly "the early Church Father Clement of Alexandria" as his "Final Authority"?

I plan to comment in the near future on Doctor Wright's recent comment on The Grace Hour,
in which he claimed that "Yahweh" is found in the Hebrew Manuscripts.
Pastor Wright did not mention specifically that "Yahweh" is found in a vocalized Hebrew Manuscript [i.e. a Masoretic Text],
so I can only only assume he was talking about "an unvocalized Hebrew Manuscript"

Would Hodeuon or some other DiscussGGWO editor like to comment on Doctor Wright's comment at this time?

I think, Daved, that it would be more appropriate if you were to explain where you're going with this.

As I understand it, you contend (and rightly so) that Carl Stevens was sloppy with his definition of "The Bible" and that over time he changed from believing God's name to be 'Jehovah' to believing God's name to be 'Yahweh', using primarily Clement of Alexandria as a basis for doing so.

I think most of us here would agree Carl Stevens did not have a systematic approach to theology and was primarily self-taught. In the case of God's name, he seems to have relied first upon a couple high-profile pastors and then later Clement.

But as far as where you're going with this - using the matter of God's name you've demonstrated that Carl's "preciseness ministry" was not free from mistakes. Is the next step for you to get to the bottom of what God's name is, or to investigate where else Carl may have erred in his teachings?

If it's the first, I really do recommend that you take a Hebrew class. Whichever viewpoint on God's name you support, I think Hebrew would be valuable to you in forming your arguments & being able to evaluate the contentions of both sides.

If it's the second, are there other things that Carl said about the Bible that ought to be examined? There is also the question of whether Carl believed he was given additional special revelation. The sermon "Corporate Pentecost" is one excellent source on the subject, and I'm sure you must have others. There is also the question of where does authority lie within GGWO - in the Scriptures or in the hierarchy?

Hodeuon

Hi Hodeuon,

You obviously have a lot of your own views on the issue I am dealing with,
plus if I not be mistaken you believe strongly that there is evidence that God's name is likely to be "Yahweh".

Why don't you present your views in support of the name "Yahweh" on this thread, or else start a new topic, and present your views in support of the name "Yahweh", on that thread.

I am reasonably sure that Administrator has made changes so that you or anyone else can start a new topic on the Yahweh vs Jehovah Forum.

Meanwhile I plan to enjoy raking leaves for the next four hours.

Can you deal with Josephus's teaching that "YHWH' is composed of four Hebrew vowel letters. Many Sacred Name ministries use Josephus's teaching to demonstrate that God's name may be "Yahweh".

Daved

P.S.

Hodeuon,

I think a lot of members of "Discuss GGWO" [myself included] would like to read your views on the "Yahweh" issue.

Daved,

I think I've already expressed my views. I think that 'Yahweh' is the best rendition of God's name that we have. I've noted that there is widespread agreement that God's name is some form of the verb "to be" and suggested a possibility for how 'Yahweh' is an archaic third person, masculine singular form. I've also argued that there's no way that 'Jehovah' is real Hebrew word, any more than as;ldkfja;l is a real English word. And I've supplied the location in the Mishnah, tractate Sanhedrin, where it's stated that the divine name is spelled yodh, he, ... but pronounced aleph, daleth,... This supports the scholarly view that 'Jehovah' is the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton with the vowels of 'Adonai' (Lord). In other places, 'Jehovih' is found, and that's the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton with the vowels of 'Elohim' (God). You have rejected this because the information came from a book other than the Bible. I reply that the Jewish copyists knew that the Old Testament canon was complete and that when they chose to use a kethiv-qere (a difference between how a word is written and how it is read aloud), they would not add that to the Old Testament itself but record it in their own teachings.

I must point out that you have once again chosen not to answer direct questions. And I suspect that you will refer me to various websites rather than actually interact with my views.

Hodeuon

Hi Hodeuon

On Nov 4 2009, 08:52 AM you wrote:

I think, Daved, that it would be more appropriate if you were to explain where you're going with this.

I suspect that I don't know myself where I am going with this. I am playing it by ear.

As I understand it, you contend (and rightly so) that Carl Stevens was sloppy with his definition of "The Bible"
and that over time he changed from believing God's name to be 'Jehovah'
to believing God's name to be 'Yahweh',
using primarily Clement of Alexandria as a basis for doing so.

While it was Pastor Paul Stevens not Pastor Carl Stevens that informed me that the King James Bible was not the Bible: rather that it was only a translation of the Bible.
It definitely had shocked me, when Pastor Paul Stevens informed the Grace Hour Audience that "Jehovah" is not found in the Bible.

My Roman Catholic upbringing never prepared me for the discovery that Protestnt Christians didn't believe that the particular Bible they held in their hand in the Pulpit, was actually "the Bible".
Oh well,Live and learn!.

I think most of us here would agree Carl Stevens did not have a systematic approach to theology
and was primarily self-taught.
In the case of God's name, he seems to have relied first upon a couple high-profile pastors and then later Clement.

I believe that Pastor Carl Stevens was greatly impressed by what an un-named Pastor in Washington state had written concerning the name "Yahweh", plus he was definitely impressed by the writings of Dr. Allen on this issue. And of course he was aware of Clement of Alexandria's Greek Transcription: "Iaoue", which favors "Yahweh".

But as far as where you're going with this - using the matter of God's name you've demonstrated that Carl's "preciseness ministry" was not free from mistakes.

Is the next step for you to get to the bottom of what God's name is,
or to investigate where else Carl may have erred in his teachings?

I am trying to determine if there is sufficient Scriptural support for the name "Yahweh".
I am truely disillusioned that both Joseph Bryant Rotherham, and the Roman Catholic Church, have published English Bibles in which "Yahweh" occurs about 6823 times, yet in the underlying Hebrew Scriptures used for these translations the Hebrew spelling "Y-a-h-w-e-h" does not occur even once.

It is even worse in my 4-Volume NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament [NIVIHEOT] where I can observe first hand that not one occurance of "Yahweh" in the interlinear text, has support from the underlying Hebrew.
The underling Hebrew is a Masoretic Text in which 6 different variants of the Tetragrammaton occur, not one of which is the Hebrew letters "Y-a-h-w-e-h.

It almost appears as if our Hebrew Scholars have deliberately set out to deceive us concerning the name "Yahweh".
The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon defines Gesenius's proposed Hebrew Punctuation [yod-patah-heh-silent shewa-waw-segol-heh] as being , the proper name of the God of Israel "Yahweh", without mentioning that this Hebrew punctuation occurs in no extant Hebrew Text.

Is "disingenuous" the correct word for what the editors of the BDB Lexicon wrote as the definition of Gesenius's "'proposed in 1815 A.D." punctuation of YHWH.

If it's the first, I really do recommend that you take a Hebrew class. Whichever viewpoint on God's name you support, I think Hebrew would be valuable to you in forming your arguments & being able to evaluate the contentions of both sides.

I am still waiting for some Hebrew Scholar to demonstrate how "Nathan" can be prefixed with "Yahweh" to create the theophoric name "Yehonathan". Until then I will try to survive with my present kindergarten knowledge of Hebrew.

Just in passing, on his website, Garth Grenache demonstrates in detail how "Yahwa" [but not "Yahweh"] can be prefixed to "Nathan" to create the Theophoric Name "Yehonathan" .

Of course I don't think "Yahwa" occurs in any Extant Hebrew Text.

If it's the second, are there other things that Carl said about the Bible that ought to be examined?
There is also the question of whether Carl believed he was given additional special revelation.
The sermon "Corporate Pentecost" is one excellent source on the subject, and I'm sure you must have others.
There is also the question of where does authority lie within GGWO - in the Scriptures or in the hierarchy?

Pastor Carl Stevens exegeted the Scriptures, so I assume that in some cases when he explained to the congregation the meaning of a passage, he was using his own research.

Hodeuon.


P.S.

I will try to answer your questions from your Nov 5 2009, 08:57 AM post at a latter time.

Daved

Hi again Hodeuon,


I will post your text in Red Font, and I will reply in Black Font.
On Nov 5, 2009, at 08:57 AM, you wrote:

Daved,

I think I've already expressed my views. I think that 'Yahweh' is the best rendition of God's name that we have.

I realize that you believe that "Yahweh: is the best rendering of God's name that we have.
However,
If you know of any Extant Hebrew Text in which "Yahweh" occurs, would you provide that information at this time?

I've noted that there is widespread agreement that God's name is some form of the verb "to be"
and suggested a possibility for how 'Yahweh' is an archaic third person, masculine singular form.

Many scholars agree with what you said, but to be redundant,
If you know of any Extant Hebrew Text in which "Yahweh" occurs, would you provide that information at this time?

Hopefully at a later time we can discuss Josephus's teaching that YHWH is composed of 4 vowels.
Many Sacred Name Ministries believe that YHWH is pronounced like "ee-ah-oo-eh" which favors "Yahweh"!

I've also argued that there's no way that 'Jehovah' is real Hebrew word, any more than as;ldkfja;l is a real English word.
And I've supplied the location in the Mishnah, tractate Sanhedrin,
where it's stated that the divine name is spelled yodh, he, ... but pronounced aleph, daleth,...
This supports the scholarly view that 'Jehovah' is the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton with the vowels of 'Adonai' (Lord).

Of course "(Y)Jehovah is "a less than perfect example" of what Permanent Qere or Qere Perpeuum is supposed to look like, because as Gesenius clearly states in his writings, the first vowel point in "(Y)Jehovah and the first vowel point in "Adonay" are not the same.

In other places, 'Jehovih' is found, and that's the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton with the vowels of 'Elohim' (God).

Unlike (Y)Jehovah, I believe that "(Y)Jehovih" is a perfect example of what Permanent Qere or Qere Perpeuum is supposed to look like!

You have rejected this because the information came from a book other than the Bible. I reply that the Jewish copyists knew that the Old Testament canon was complete and that when they chose to use a kethiv-qere
(a difference between how a word is written and how it is read aloud),
they would not add that to the Old Testament itself but record it in their own teachings.

I feel that I have previously dealt with this issue above.

If (Y)Jehovah was truely an example of kethiv-qere the precise same vowels as are found in "Adonay" would have been placed in YHWH, and the consonants of "Adonay" would have been placed in the margins of the Hebrew text.

I must point out that you have once again chosen not to answer direct questions.

As of this particular moment I believe that I have responded to all the questions that you have asked.

And I suspect that you will refer me to various websites rather than actually interact with my views.

Hodeuon

Of course than again maybe I won't.

Daved