Being Passive & Compliant

Did we contribute to our own problems by being passive & compliant or was trust abused to the extent that it did not matter?

I don't understand the part about trust being abused "to the extent that it did not matter."

I hate the question though, and what could be implied by even asking it. I don't hate you, OHP, and I don't think you mean the question the same way others might who have asked similar questions or even made accusations like this. But every time I've heard someone raising this issue, it sets me off....

Because of how young you were when first exposed to bs/gg, I don't think you had any choice in the matter for many years. Most people grow up and adopt the religion of their families. e.g.: most Americans claim some form of Christianity. Most Arabs claim some form of Islam. Most Indians are Hindus, etc.

While many of us may not have been born into the system, we were very young when first exposed. I believe my experience was very typical: I was only 19. Had just had a born-again experience. (While bs wasn't involved in my conversion, I met them within a few weeks). I wanted to know the Bible, and wanted to meet people "like me." i.e.: Close to my age and who ALSO wanted to know the Bible.

The first people I met from bs were close to my age, and could quote lots of Bible verses. They expressed an interest in helping me learn the Bible. They were nice, they were friendly, they made an impact on me. Soon they were becoming my "friends." I quickly ended up moving into their commune in Johnston, RI.

Got a job nearby. When I told co-workers I was connected with the Bible Speaks, they began waving red flags. Nothing too extreme, just cautionary. I was too new to the church to have any stock answers ready with which to respond. So of course, at dinner at the commune I would tell me new friends what my co-workers were saying about the church.

"Oh no, that's not true..." they'd say, and then give me the party line response to each charge, allegation or accusation.

These people were my FRIENDS, right? So of COURSE they were telling me the truth, right? I mean -- they were Bible students or even Bible TEACHERS. They wouldn't LIE, would they?

sigh... I was young. Ignorant (lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned). Naive (having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous). And it was taken advantage of and all used against me.

On the one hand, my new friends at the commune could quote lots of verses to prove how important it was to have faith, trust God, never ever even LISTEN to an evil report (how the hell do you PROVE what's true if you're never even exposed to its opposite?!), etc. But all those verses were then twisted, somehow, so we would have faith in the leaders and trust THEIR words. They refuted all the charges against them with the party line, yet demanded we not even know what the actual charges and evidence thereof really were!

I was not passive. Far from it. Compliant? Yeah, probably. Weren't we taught (forced?) to submit, etc.? Isn't submission the way to prove you have faith and are trusting God? Not leaning to your own understanding? So subtle... So close to what the Bible teaches that we were fooled...

I think it was all EXTREMELY manipulative, while very subtle at the same time. I'm sure that the majority of those spouting the party line responses never personally investigated both sides to PROVE all things. They, too, had been told what to believe by friendly people whom THEY wanted to trust and (at that time) had no reason NOT to trust. There were probably a number of people-to-people links, all repeating the party line, and all inadvertently helping to propagate the lies.

It wasn't long before I knew all the stock answers to all the charges. My own family eventually heard me repeating the lies, because I actually believed I was telling the truth and defending the greatest ministry on earth against the satanic attacks.

Faith in God and trust in the Bible was used and abused. Twisted into faith in the church leaders and trust in their teachings.

Listen to any current or former gg preacher today. I will guarantee you that if they make statements about trusting God and the Bible, the context is ALWAYS about trusting THEM and THEIR words! Listen to that enough, and you're eventually brain washed by it.

Tom Schaller may claim it's a badge of honor to be accused of being brain washed and in a cult. Rather than seriously considering WHY someone might say that and really ADDRESSING the charges, he and gg (as taught by Stevens), either:

• joke about it
• rant so dogmatically as to intimidate anyone who might DARE to entertain a THOUGHT about actually studying the facts for themselves.

In so doing, they (all those listening and accepting his teaching) are doing the same things with and to each other as my "friends" did for me in Johnston, RI back in 1978. i.e.: Tom is their pastor and the leader of the church. He smiles and back slaps. People know his wife and kids and grand kids. He couldn't possibly have any ulterior motive, right?

Those who defend his teachings, just as my friends did 30 years ago: have they honestly evaluated ANY of the evidence for themselves? The CRI Report? The court transcripts? The Sandy Cove documents (which were originally offered for sale in the MBC bookstore)? Of course not. They were told that they're all lies from disgruntled former members and liberal judges, so why bother?

The Christian Research Institute's report was first issued in 1981 AT THE REQUEST OF TBS. Fast forward to Sandy Cove I in 2005, and 60+gg pastors gathered to address many of the very issues documented by CRI a quarter century earlier. A few months later, at Sandy Cove II, one of Carl's own sons told me that if only his father and the leaders back then would have heeded the report...

Sorry for the long rant. As I said, every time I've heard someone raising this issue, it sets me off....

This post has been edited by John Collins on Jul 23 2009, 08:31 AM

***I wrote a long response to your rant and have elected to delete most of it.***

The site administrator graciously set aside space for the Tacoma ministry and I do not see a single thread that already discusses this topic. You should be sorry for the rant. It is way off base. We already know that these organizations are flawed and mis-managed as hind sight is always 20-20. For decades, many of the same practices that were learned in Baltimore or Lenox were accepted in Tacoma. Why? Because many of the men that were leaders were just like Pastah Powell – they were passive and compliant after years of teaching primarily from CHS.

Sorry for the tough love but this thread was started because I hoped that it may help some people over here. If I am wrong I can accept that or you do not like it, you could have contacted me. John you sound like a broken record. Please take steps to get healthy!

This post has been edited by Out Haus Preachah on Jul 27 2009, 12:00 AM

If you do not understand something, why rant about it?

What do you think is being implied? That we are responsible for our own actions?

I don’t hate you either. This sets you off? You have a problem then.

And this is probative of what???

This is not uncommon.

Did YOU question this? They may have been giving the best answer they had based on the information available.

Did you oppose them?

Did you oppose them? Yes or no.

Poor little Johnny.

You wrote: I don't understand the part about trust being abused "to the extent that it did not matter."

Speak for yourself.

I have already read those documents. I do not read them daily like you do.

This sets you off and gives you license to do what? Where was this mentioned before? A lot of the people I know were not wimps like you and confronted their local leaders several times over a period of years. You did not until after Sandy Cove. Why? Because you profited from the system the way it was…. GET OVER IT JOHN!

John, instead of being an emotional wreck and a dick for the rest of your life, seek help.

Brett

Wow, kinda harsh.

Hodeuon

Yes, kinda. Why is it that christians or ex-christians always attack those who disagree with them so much more viciously than the "unsaved"? Perhaps it is because they have been taught to be intolerant of anything that goes against what they believe to be the truth.

Anyway, I had to speak up because I HATE statements like this: "You see your reputation is that you were a loser when you went to GGWO and you are a bigger loser now." His reputation according to whom? The purpose is to imply that your opponent is considered by everyone (or at least a good many people) to be a loser, or a liar, or a disreputable person. This ploy is used by people who cannot defend their position by facts or reason. If you are going to argue with someone, keep it between you and that person. Don't bring in all these alleged supporters unless they are willing to speak for themselves. When I see someone make statements like "everyone thinks" or "all of us" or "your reputation is..." it destroys all their credibility with me. Speak for yourself alone.

SORRY FOR THE LONG RANT but that is one of my pet peeves.

Ordinary predictable ranting perspective from out of character individual :

Upon recently making a decision to forcibly attend church services at ggwo after some months of absence, mY experience so far has been enlightening in the area of realizing the outcome of expectation. HUH? Now that is an ice-breaking question if you happen to be a returning reprobate gg-christian. Many cold and shadowy figures can peer upon a familiar face like mine (my own experience from participating in and out of the group) gazing to quickly glance away for the lack of substance to engage such a one as I that has "gone astray". Only a thoroughly indoctrinated "body member" could venture to engage such riFF raFF as myself or others that do not submit to EvErY word that comes from the sacred pulpit at 6015 MoraviA paRk driVe.

So it seems the only way to stay afloat is to swim face-up measuring the waves of differentiality and expelling unwanted suffocating water by entertaining the agenda with questions like...HUH? *not in a mocking manner* Therefore giving way to an inspired dialogue (hopefully) contributing with others to breathe freely in a society of interconnected personalities. This is what has been happening in my own heart from investigating (writings from many others) just a little throughout this short time span. Gratitude. I am thankful for the trouble facing my marriage, family and friends in this process of advancing in life. It reminds me of computer files corrupted from intermixed bits transferred in the eternal state of electrocentric space. ~ Like the "shallow depth" or the eyes of the world/redefined by water/refined by fire and so on

Some times we live no particular way but our own. Being passive and compliant can be fun.

GOOD Night

Strange thread...
I think OHP’s question was a question of culpability in our involvement with the acronyms. My feeling is that the answer is an answer of degrees. Some were born into the system or introduced to it at a very young age and it was just a part of their family life and experience. Others were in the “wheel house” (ages 18-25) yes we were adults, no we didn’t have a lot of life’s experience and maturity to identify or interpret the cultic tendencies yes we were drawn to the idea of changing the world for Jesus and having these great apostolic like leaders. Others were older and probably found the church because of their kids or coworkers and my guess is didn’t stay as long or never had the level of involvement as the 18-25 year olds. I know this is a generalization but I bet pretty close to demographically correct.

For someone like myself being a part of the group had a greater draw than paying attention to the red flags. As we started families and built friendships within the group... keeping our family and community was more important than the red flags. It seems to me that we all had a degree of responsibility in our choices but other factors were more important than the warning signs. For most if not all of us either the red flags were too glaring and numerous or the system and leadership identified us as dangerous (or maybe a combination of both) and we left. In some cases it was a vicious ugly painful departure in other cases maybe not so much or to that degree. For me the first six months out was nothing but freeing and happy. The next year or more after that it was a painful process to rebuild my life and community outside the group and figure out all the "why?" questions about my involvement.

IMO no matter what the current situation I am in is... it is much better than living in a false judgmental elitist church system and personality cult.

Not too sure about the real long JC post or the angry OHP and Brett replies...

A sense of belonging while losing individuality to an idea that seemed most important: The great commission of Stevenism.

Carl Stevens capitalized upon peoples' sense of belonging and their own love for God in order to reprogram them into serving himself. He overemphasised how important to was to belong to "the body", to come to every service, give up one's individuality and to be of one mind (under his control) with "the body" as a way of proving one's own devotion to Christ and putting Him above all else. What it actually turned out to be was a bunch of Carl worship and blind servitude to Carl. Carl repeatedly touted GGWO as one of the very few elite groups that was truly sold out for Christ with the proper teaching, implying that most of the rest of the body of Christ was not. So an unsuspecting person would often be led to feel that the way to truly submit to Christ, please Him and to learn truth would be to come to all GGWO services and functions and be completely passive and compliant to everything taught and everything the pastors wanted. These pastors were supposedly God's specially anointed to lead the flock, who was anyone to ever question them or even think independantly of them. Complete passivity and compliance was expected of everyone. Sadly so many were so misled to actually believe that this kind of blind loyalty, dependancy, and servitude to men was what it meant to serve and please Christ. Many GGWO pastors took full advantage of their passivity and compliance and used them over and over again for their own selfish interests while tricking them into thinking they were serving Christ when they were actually serving pastors. Such is the end result of the great commission of Stevenism.

OK - I am sorry so in order to be reasonable I have removed the most flagrant part of my post from August 5th.

On the other hand I also left an important question that demands to be answered fully intact.