Grace Hour 16, Oct - Dec, 2008

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Wednesday, October 01, 2008

Host: John Love

Finished Work Club offer – Bruce Wright
Finished Work theme – 2 Carl sermons: “How Can We Reveal the Finished Work of Christ?” and “The blood, the Finished Work, and the Glorified Christ”.

John Love reads part of Ephesians 6:12 and comments on it.


Carl’s taped sermon: Part 1 of “Satan’s Cosmic Programming System”

Carl: “We’re dealing with 2 Peter chapter 1.”

Carl states that angels have souls.

Commentary: He might be right. I’d like to have a verse citation or at least a line of reasoning in support.

Carl talks about how Satan controls everyone in his realm.

Carl: He [Satan] has to operate with caution so he can control Christians and make them God’s enemies.”

Commentary: Christians are not God’s enemies. Period. Romans 8:1 says there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. Ephesians 2:1-10 makes clear the difference between being in the kingdom of darkness and being in the kingdom of light. Carl is sowing fear.

Carl talks about Satan doing damage control.

Carl says an employer is the head of his table of organization.

Commentary: Well, yeah, obviously. But Carl seems to make the table of organization sound almost mystical.

Carl talks about people becoming familiar and then doing it again about a decade later.

Commentary: I can’t tell if he’s talking about the history of WWBC / TBS / GGWO or not. That’s not what happened within Carl’s organization.

I couldn’t stick around for the call-in segment today.

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Thursday, October 02, 2008

Host: John Love

Finished Work Club offer

Carl’s taped sermon: Part 2 of “Satan’s Cosmic Programming System”

Carl states that God cast Satan out of heaven because Satan was “familiar”.

Commentary: A basic principle of hermeneutics is that the writer or speaker determines the meaning of the words he uses. But there’s an understanding built into the principle that the writer/speaker is going to try to be understandable. Here Carl is taking a word that means one thing and loading it up with an entirely different meaning.

Carl says that few people go soulwinning & few churches have attendance in July because they are familiar.

Commentary: A lot of people don’t go soulwinning because all they every hear about it is Pharisaical people like Carl Stevens condemning them for not doing it. A lot more people would do it if the people ordering them to go do it would go out there with them & give them on-the-job training.

More commentary: Carl talks out of both sides of his mouth. In a sermon played last week, he said he differed with Jack Hyles in that while Hyle was against vacations, Carl wasn’t. Well, guess what? People take their vacations in July. If GGWO pastors weren’t so scared that their people would leave GGWO, they wouldn’t be so worried about vacations including weekend. There are churches at vacation spots, boardwalk ministries, beach ministries. Carl was afariad and GGWO’s current leaders continue to be afraid that people will leave if “stay at GGWO” isn’t constantly reinforced.

Carl talks about “re-gene-ing” your life and “your new spiritual genetics”.

Commentary: Metaphors from science really only work when the speaker can demonstrate that he has some understanding of the science his metaphor plays off of.

Carl: There’s been no decade ever like the 90s. There’s never been an onslaught like this before.

Commentary: Nonsense. One of the oldest written documents archaeologists have ever found was a list of complaints about how things were going places in a handbasket, society was breaking down entirely, youth were running wild in the streets, etc, etc, ad nauseam. It was from over 2000 years BC. Don’t confuse carping about how things were better in the old days with actual eschatology.


Call-in: John Love, Steve Scibelli

John Love agrees with & reinforces the sermon.

Commentary: I’m starting to feel like GGWO thinks that we now need Carl interpreted to us because we can’t slurp the Kool-aid without adult supervision.

John Love endorses Carl’s comments on the 90s. He says that the spiritual warfare in the 2000s is even heavier than in the 1990s. He says it will keep getting worse & worse.

Scibelli agrees with this.

Commentary: Even a cursory reading of the Bible shows that history is not a linear downward slope.

Caller: John, Connecticut – heard something on TV yesterday he wants to ask about; it’s about where people go when they die, believers go to God’s presence

John Love: Unbelievers to go what’s basically a holding cell until the great white throne judgment.

Commentary: To be precise, they go to hell now and the lake of fire after the great white throne judgment.

The caller asks if Abraham’s bosom and Hades are the same place.

Scibelli seems to say yes.

The caller asks them to differentiate between Hell, Hades, the lake of fire, Abraham’s bosom, etc.

John Love says that they have to go on to other callers but will come back to that question later.

Caller: Nicole – reads for 1 Corinthians, talks about running the race

Email: Scott, Baltimore – What does it mean to be re-gened?

Scibelli – It’s the same as being born again.

Commentary: Okay. So why talk about “spiritual genetics”? When you talk about being born again, at least other Christians understand you. And some unbelievers at least have a rough idea of where you’re coming from instead of assuming you’re crazy.

Scibelli: “The enemy is always trying to remind us of our former genetics.”

Commentary: In GGWO theology, the believer is actually said to still have those former genetics, namely the old sin nature.

Caller: Jerry, Pennsylvania – comment of spiritual warfare, “See you Sunday.”

I was away from the radio for a couple minutes & came back to Scibelli & John Love discussing Hell. They state that people in Hell will have no contact with their former friends.

Commentary: I’d love to have a verse citation on this. They may well be correct, but evidence would be nice.

Scibelli & Love explain that Gehenna is a name for Hell drawn from the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem where garbage was burning all the time. The bodies of executed criminals were thrown there.

Commentary: I’m not sure how many of the other places they got to. But I think it’s important to say that Sheol is the realm of the dead. Abraham’s bosom was the area of Sheol were Old Testament believers went.

Total: 4
GGers: Definitely at least one, maybe more
Outsiders: Somewhere between 0 and 3, couldn’t really tell

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Monday, October 06, 2008

Host: John Love

This week’s theme is “Culture and the Christian”.

Finished Work Club offer

John Love reads from John 17 and teaches for a few minutes.

Carl’s taped sermon: Part 1 of “Love Not the World”

Carl: “You’ll see something I understand because it’s my business. I’m in it full-time.”

Carl is preaching on the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness.

Commentary: Most of what Carl said was true. He did draw some conclusions that could not be supported solely by the verses he quoted, but a reasonable argument for those conclusions could be put together from other places.

Carl noted that in the verse “Love not the world” the verb is agapao. He says it’s unusual to find this word used of non-divine love.

Commentary: That’s because Carl bought into an oversimplication of what phileo and agapao mean.

Carl says that anything outside God’s love is lust. He says there are six lust patterns.

Commentary: I haven’t heard sufficient reasoning to convince me that we should use this definition of lust. Why confuse everyone?

Carl: “The word there is sarx. S-A-R-X. It doesn’t mean body; it means the old sin nature.”

Commentary: This is incorrect. It’s the old man, not the old nature.


Call-in: John Love, Steve Scibelli

John Love lists upcoming GGWO events.

John Love talks about a worship concert as a good non-threatening way to introduce friends to the Gospel.

Commentary: So evidently confrontational evangelism is _not_ the only way to go….

Scibelli reinforces what Carl and John Love were teaching, using James 4.

Scibelli states that the disciples were uneducated in the rabbinical schools. “There was one who was educated – Judas Iscariot.” Scibelli goes on to say there’s nothing wrong with education.

Commentary: Prove Judas Iscariot was educated. And if you really didn’t have anything against education, why bring it up?

Scibelli speaks against drinking wine. “You don’t have to listen to it if you don’t like it. That’s just what the Scriptures teach.”

Commentary: Steve, I’m not listening to you because *you’re wrong*. Do you really think Jesus turned water into O’Doul’s and then the master of the feast *liked* it?

Caller: Mark, a GG pastor, calling from someplace I know better than to list

John Love asked if they’ve made any disciples in the city they’re in.

Caller: Margaret, NY – lost the call

Scibelli returns to taking about the six lust patterns. Love & Scibelli come up with: approbation lust, power lust, sensuality, pride, materialism, and detail lust.

Scibelli and Love state that much of the church is no different than the world.

Caller: Julian, a GG pastor in Puerto Rico

They discuss a missions trip there.

Julian asks them to discuss strongholds. Scibelli does so. He says he’s never been in Puerto Rico long enough to realize what strongholds are there, but he’s got a fairly decent idea what some of the strongholds in the US and Africa and Europe and Russia are.

Caller: Stan Collins, GG pastor in Lima, Peru

Stan says preaching, the pulpit, prayer, and evangelism mark Christians as not part of the world.

Commentary: By “the pulpit” he means being submitted to a pastor. But Ephesians 5:21 talks about submitting to each other, not only to the pastor. He’s supposed to be submitting to everyone else, too.

Stan: “You’re provoking me again.”

Commentary: He’s using “to provoke” in a different sense than most English-speakers use it.

Calls: 3
GG pastors overseas: 3

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Monday, October 13, 2008

John Love announces they are not taking phone calls today – the staff is off for Columbus Day. The sermon will go the full hour.

Finished Work Club offer

John Love speaks for a few minutes on the need for vision to replace mental resistance in our lives. He talks about cynicism happening when people are missing courage. He is several minutes in to this before he mentions the Bible, and then only to use the Israelite spies as an example. John Love talks about negativity being contagious.

Carl’s taped sermon: “The Fellowship of Being Conformed to the Lamb”

Carl started with Song of Solomon. He takes the direction to take away the little foxes that spoil the vines as being an instruction for Christians to take things that spoil the fruit of the Spirit.

Commentary: So this whole sermon is founded on the assumption that Song of Solomon is an allegory of the Christian life. So – was it therefore utterly unintelligible to its original audience and the first thousand years of readers?

Carl continues developing the allegory. He states that Christ calls the Church to more aspects of the Christian life over the course of the book.

Commentary: Surely this can’t be a chronological allegory, because the apostles had a much better grasp of the Christian life than the generations of church leaders who followed them. Not that it’s an allegory in the first place…

Carl takes the part in Song of Solomon about the bride not being to find the bridegroom as meaning that the Christian should not stop to think over how to respond to Christ. ”She wasn’t ready to enter into His sufferings. She wasn’t ready to be conformed into the image of the Lamb.”

Commentary: Because then the Christian might realize that the entire basis for this sermon is bogus and that it was just another way for Carl Stevens to tell Christians what bad believers they are.

Carl says if you don’t believe that suffering is coming, look at how 8 of the biggest 20 ministries are under attack & under investigation. He attributes this to Satan’s attacks.

Commentary: Most of those ministries were “suffering” due to the personal sins of their founders. I would argue that those who suffered were the people who put their trust in those men while thinking they were trusting in God, and the rest of the Church suffered when those men’s failings were thrown back at all of us. *That’s* why an elder needs to be above reproach. *That’s* why we ask GGWO to correct itself.

Carl relates a couple stories about kids praying for their parents to be saved.

Commentary: Carl’s stories always involve a lot of weeping & how Carl tells the stories creeps me out.

Carl screams a lot about living by grace toward the end of the broadcast.

General commentary: The sermon dates from the Lenox days. Carl mentions wanting to have ministries reaching all of New England.

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Wednesday, October 15, 2008

Host: John Love

John Love speaks for a few minutes on Romans 8, playing off the title of the sermon that’s being played today. He reads the verse “If God be for us” and suggests that the correct translation would be ‘since God is for us’.

Commentary: It’s not. He’s repeating a common misconception about Greek conditional sentences.


Carl’s taped sermon: “Certain Certainties”, part 2

Carl tells the congregation they don’t appreciate the scientific laws referred to in Scripture because they don’t think about those things.

Carl says that people are ignorant if they don’t know these things.

Carl states that the Bible prophesied the effects of the atomic bomb. He cites Zechariah 12:10.

Commentary: Zechariah 12:20 reads, “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.” This is a bad verse reference. I think maybe he meant something from Ezekiel 38 or 39.

Carl: “You say this is a private interpretation. Of course it isn’t. It’s obviously true.”

Commentary: Yes, he really said that! Words like “of course” and “obviously” and “clearly” are used to make a case when you have no evidence. That’s why some Bible professors don’t let students use those words in academic papers. They want evidence, reasoning, and synthesis, not sound bites.

Carl takes “men will be as lightning in the skies” as referring to parachutists.

Commentary: “This is that” correlation to current events almost always makes you look like a fool.

Carl states that the Bible prophesied traffic congestion, submarines, and radio transmissions. He cites the book of the Bible for each but not chapter and verse.

Commentary: More “this is that”…

Carl refers to Bible education as the highest form of education and says he could debate anyone in any area of knowledge & be right.

Commentary: I think this has more to do with Carl not believing he could be wrong that it does with the Bible. It’s a remarkably egotistical / narcissistic thing to say.

Carl cites the prophecies of the destruction of Tyre.

Commentary: He was correct about these.

Carl claims that Ezekiel prophesied that there would be a united Arab country. He cites the United Arab Republic (the fiction that Egypt & Syria were united in the 60s) as proof. He also claims that on the basis of a Soviet statement that they were allied to the UAR, that Magog is now a member of the united Arabs.

Commentary: The UAR doesn’t exist anymore. The identification of Magog as Russia is tenuous. Russia is not currently allied with the Arabs. This is no longer evidence for “certain certainties” in the Bible. *This* is why “this is that” correlations to current events ultimately do not confirm the truth of the Bible. Things can change, and then you look like a chump. Tyre, that’s solid evidence. Zechariah 12:10 used properly – it prophesies the death of Christ- that’s solid evidence. The Bible doesn’t become more credible when we torture a verse into meaning something that it might not; it makes it less credible.


Call-in: John Love, Bruce Wright

Love & Wright talk about what’s going on at GGWO Baltimore. They urge listeners within an hour’s drive to come to services there. John Love says “don’t forsake the assembling of yourselves together”.

Wright encourages people to get a copy of “Certain Certainties”. He says, “You can sit down and open up the newspaper and see the correlations.”

Commentary: That’s a textbook recipe for private interpretations.

Schaller comes in.

Schaller: “One of the reasons Bible prophecy is so important to us is because it validates the Bible.”

Commentary: Yes, it does. This is why it’s critical to validate with prophecies that you’re absolutely sure of rather than ones where you might later be shown to be wrong. On the Emmaus road, Jesus explained the Old Testament prophecies that pointed to Him. Those are the ones to use. Where God has already made the interpretation, it’s harder for us to screw it up. Not impossible, just harder.

Caller: Joyce, Las Vegas NV – “Wow, I’m just blown away to hear your voices.” Says she had been going to another church but felt prompted to go back to Growing in Grace [Ed: the IAGM church in Las Vegas]. She says, “It’ll always be Greater Grace to me.”

Caller: Jerry, GGWO pastor Montreal QB – says prophecy discussions are a great way to get people interested in Christianity

Schaller says they’ve had series in Baltimore on end time themes.

Jerry: “We’re just so grateful to be affiliated and attached to you in Baltimore.”

Caller: Evie, Baltimore

John Love: “That’s why confrontational evangelism is so important. If you leave them alone, they’ll perish in a Christless eternity.”

Commentary: That’s a false dichotomy. Confrontational evangelism and saying nothing are not your only two options.

Schaller requests prayer for his brother who was in a bad accident yesterday.
John Love prays for him and for his own father who has been hospitalized. Amen.

Funding appeal

John Love says, “It’s nothing short of a miracle that the program has been on the air almost fifty years.”

Commentary: The _succession_ of programs has been almost years….

Total callers: 3
GGers: all

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Host: John Love

Finished Work Club offer

The sermon is part 2 of one they started playing yesterday, “Divine Viability Versus Abortion”.

Carl confuses freedom with free enterprise while on a tangent.

Carl does properly distinguish between killing and murder.

Carl provides a number of verses which refer to unborn children being alive. He cites lexicons & commentaries in support.

Commentary: He actually made a good case here.

Carl claims that based on abortion, America is under plague. He defines a plague as a three-fold curse.

Commentary: The verse he read from Jeremiah did not substantiate his statements about a plague.

Carl: “I can’t have fellowship with a Christian who believes in abortion.” He says that they’re an accessory.

Commentary: It’s pretty tough to influence someone’s opinion when you write them off.

Carl starts screaming.

Carl: “Now you listen to me! I’m giving you the Bible!”

Commentary: I can’t think of a better way to scare people away from the Bible. Carl Stevens should have been confronted at this oint.

Carl “guarantees” that people who have abortions suffer violence later in life. This is after he said he’d like to see a study done on this.

Commentary: So he actually _doesn’t_ have the “guarantee” he claims. He’s _making_stuff_up_. This discredits the pro-life movement, to have people who are so zealous about “thou shall not murder” that they forget “thou shall not bear false witness”.

Carl says for the second time that people who’ve had abortions & are saved *are forgiven*.

Commentary: Excellent. This does need to be stressed.

Call-in: John Love, Bruce Wright

Caller: Olga

Caller: Margaret, NY

Caller: Trucker Dan, calling from Kentucky – repeats that those who are forgiven, are forgiven & don’t have to carry the guilt with them

Schaller comes in.

Caller: Stan Collins, GGWO pastor Lima, Peru – reports on trips to Ecuador & Argentina with some short-term GGWO missionaries from the US

Schaller points out that 25 million people are trying to adopt.

Wright notes that the argument for abortion is largely an argument from convenience rather than an argument from morality.

Stan Collins & Schaller exchange greetings & approval.

Caller: Ty – wonders how people can believe in inerrancy & vote for someone who is in favor of letting people take human lives

John Love says you can’t.

Commentary: There is a subtle but very critical error here. What they’re both saying is, “You can’t claim to believe in inerrancy and disagree with my interpretation against abortion.” That’s like saying “You can’t believe in inerrancy and be a Calvinist” or “You can’t believe in inerrancy and not be a Calvinist”. Inerrancy is the doctrine that God superintended the writing of Scripture such that everything in it was absolutely true (in the original manuscripts). It says nothing about all believers agreeing on what it means. *Inerrancy* itself doesn’t even say that what God wrote through the human authors is understandable. The doctrine of perspicacity of Scripture says that; not inerrancy. It’s bad logic as well as bad form to accuse a theological opponent of not believing in inerrancy because he disagrees with you. We ain’t inerrant; Scripture is.

Caller: Aidan, a pastor – speaks favorably of the Roman Catholic Church’s stand against abortion

Schaller agrees.

Total calls: 5
GGers: at least 4

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Wednesday, October 22, 2008

Host: John Love

Finished Work Club offer

Carl’s taped sermon: “Creation’s Declaration of the Creator”

Carl starts in Psalm 121.

Carl says that some people in heathen lands submit to the evidence of a Creator which they see in creation. He states no one is saved except through Jesus Christ. He says these people in heathen lands worship the one true God without knowing His name. “May I say that Jesus Christ does not send all the pagans to hell.” He says these people would accept special revelation if it reached them, and that God knows this on the basis of foreknowledge. He cites Isaiah 46:10 in support of this.

Commentary: Carl is actually working his way through a really tough question here. The verse citation shows that God has foreknowledge & omnipotence. It doesn’t prove that Carl’s interpretation here is correct. But I seriously do have to commend Carl for making a good honest attempt at the question of are there people who haven’t heard a sermon or read the Bible and yet believe in God. And I hope Carl’s conclusion is correct.

Shortly after this, Carl is screaming, including telling the congregation to stop being passive.

Commentary: I don’t know what that rant was for. He was doing so well up to that point.

Carl veers off in talking about living the Christian life. A lot of it is in a near-rant.

Commentary: I’m not sure what happened to the subject of creation & the Creator. It was going so well until Carl hit his hobbyhorses.

Carl: “A person who isn’t evil doesn’t think evil.”

Commentary: Way to make everyone feel insecure.

Carl: “You don’t have a nature to gossip anymore.”

Commentary: Wait – do you have an “old sin nature” or not? (I say no, but you still have “the old man”. Same effect, but you’re not a hypostatic union of good & evil natures.) But Carl normally taught that believers do have an old sin nature.


Call-in: John Love, Bruce Wright

John Love urges people to come to the Wednesday night service.

Bruce Wright reads a verse from the Amplified Version. He talks about Creation and criticizes the scientists at CERN who built the Large Hadron Collider. He says they’re looking for the most miniscule particle possible.

Commentary: No, they’re looking for Higg’s Boson, which as I understand it would be a relatively massive particle.

Caller: John, Connecticut – Asks for Scripture to back up Carl’s assertion that not all the heathen end up in Hell.

John Love wasn’t in the studio & didn’t hear that part. He says it’s safe to say that those who believe in Christ are saved.

Commentary: Yes, that is indeed the safe answer. But that’s not the question.

Caller: What about the ones who’ve never heard the name of Jesus? How can they believe on the name of Jesus?

Wright: “There is a great testimony in nature.” “Pastor mentioned that in his message, I’m sure.”

Commentary: So neither guy who is fielding questions on the sermon actually listened to it. And it’s pretty clear neither of them previewed it, either.

Wright says that God will bring those who respond positively to His revelation in nature all the way to salvation. He does not specify the details of this.

John Love quotes Deuteronomy which doesn’t have much to do with the subject. He says God will judge people based on the light they received. He explains what he means and approximates what Carl said.

Caller: “Thank you for clearing that up.”

Commentary: They didn’t. John Love came sorta close at the end, but mostly they just muddied it – because they didn’t listen to the sermon themselves.

Schaller comes in.

Schaller: “First of all, Pastor Love, I love the subject because we’re evangelical and missions-minded and people need to be held accountable.” He attempts to explain what Carl meant.

Commentary: I’m not sure what Schaller’s answer even was. But I got the impression that he actually did listen to the sermon. Good job for trying, but Schaller just isn’t the right guy to explain something that’s carefully nuanced.

John Love, after Schaller’s explanation: “That’s amazing.”

Caller: Sergei, Poland – “beautiful message”, basically praising God

Schaller stops him and talks about the people who won’t believe.

Caller: Jerry from Montreal

Caller: George, Baltimore – agrees with Schaller’s question yesterday, asking why women with an unanticipated pregnancy can’t have the baby & have it adopted by one of the many couples who want children

Callers: 4
GGers: at least 3

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Friday, October 24, 2008

Host: John Love

Finished Work Club offer

John Love says the Grace Hour is in its fifth decade of broadcasting.

Commentary: That’s not accurate.

John Love says they’ll be playing a sermon by Steve Scibelli, and then Scibelli will be calling in from Zambia.

Taped Scibelli sermon: “See Your Value Before God”

Commentary: Scibelli has a good central point, that you are of immense value to God. There is a fair amount of GGWO terminology wrapped around it. He has quiet sections and shouted sections. He’s very clearly Carl’s student.

Scibelli says you have tremendous value in the eyes of God as you come to church and labor in the ministry.

Commentary: I think that if pressed on this, Scibelli would say that you have tremendous value to God, period. But in GGWO it always seems to come back to being a good little cog in the machine.


Call-in: John Love, Duane George

Duane George says that individually we are nothing but corporately we can have an impact, through the body.

Caller: Scibelli, Zambia – It’s independence day in Zambia. There were hymns & Bible readings on TV. Scibelli says they dedicated the country to Christ.

Scibelli: “I wish some of these people who are so-called running for office…” would glorify God.

Commentary: I’m guessing that although submission to the pastor runs pretty high on GGWO’s list, submission to the government isn’t going to.

Scibelli: “We’re so glad we’re part of Greater Grace World Outreach!” (shouting)

John Love says the theme today is the value of each & every believer. He says not to envy others but to find out what gift God has given you.

John Love reads the verse where Paul tells Timothy to use his gift. Love asks how you do this & answers that you do it by assembling with other believers.

Commentary: First of all, that’s not a good prooftext for asserting that every believer has a spiritual gift because Paul specificed “the gift which is in you through the laying on of my hands”. Second, the message they’re sending is that you’re valuable if you’re spending lots of time in the body.

Caller: Maurice, Baltimore – doesn’t think politics should be behind the pulpit, calls them on this citing yesterday’s broadcast

John Love says he agrees with him.

Commentary: Um…

The caller runs over what Love is saying.

John Love asks him what he believes about abortion & whether it’s important to know where candidate stand.

Duane George says that pro-life is a pulpit issue that became a political issue. “So now the pulpit is supposed to be quiet about it? I don’t think so.”

John Love says that all of their listerners because they’re biblical will pray and support whoever’s elected.

Caller: Stephen, Walthan (?), Massachusetts – says that if the standard is pro-life people ought to consider how many people died in Iraq and people who are executed under the death penalty

John Love criticized the liberal media for not telling how things are getting better in Iraq.

The caller seems to realize that further discussion isn’t going to go anywhere and politely signs off.

Caller: “Pastor Butch” – presumably Butch Veader – makes several points

John Love agrees with his points and says it sounds like socialism.

Commentary: I really think that at this point, John Love is making Maurice’s point for him. In spite of agreeing with John Love on the specific issues here, I think he's over the line; he’s made absolutely _no_ argument for why ‘socialism’ is unbiblical. He’s got no basis (yet) for claiming this is a ‘pulpit issue’. It's strictly political opinion.

Caller: Pat, Baltimore

John Love encourages everyone to vote for who they think would be the best next president.

Total calls: 5
GGers: 3
Outsiders: 2

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Monday, November 17, 2008

Host: John Love

Series on stress & anxiety this week

Finished Work Club offer: “The Higher Ground Package” - _Hind’s Feet on High Places_ and Scibelli sermon “There is a Rock that is Higher”

John Love reads a few verses & teaches on them.

Carl’s taped sermon: “The Biblical Way to Handle Stress”

Carl explains the physiological aspects of stress.

“I don’t think the Christian community has studied this.” They give the word, and when the word doesn’t work, they treat the person like they’re broken.

Commentary: I don’t know how Carl would know what the Christian community has & hasn’t studied since there is little evidence in his sermons that he stayed current with Christian scholarship. His description of how the Christian community treats people sounds a lot like how GGWO treats people.


Call-in: John Love, Steve Scibelli

John Love teaches for a few minutes on the verse about casting your cares on God.

John Love: “Why do so many believers justify what they call necessary stress and anxiety?” He states it is sin.

Scibelli talks about Saul losing the kingdom because he was anxious.

Callers: Ken Shibley, Micah Stambovski – calling from Romania, working in a Christian international school of 45 students, in their third month there

Scibelli says the 10 spies were anxious. “They had a panic attack based on sight.”

John Love calls it the grasshopper complex.

Caller: Jack, Schenectady, NY – ran into a believer who believes people can lose their salvation & asks the hosts to briefly teach the correct doctrine

Scibelli relates meeting someone on outreach who believed in loss of salvation. He says Satan has infected that man.

Commentary: I conclude from Scibelli’s words that “infection” can exist in a person who is eternally saved. This will probably prove useful in various discussions on this site.

Scibelli uses the argument that if we are children of God, then we cannot be unsaved because you can made a child into a not-a-child.

Commentary: This argument relies on the analogy of children being true in every respect. Scibelli bases his argument in part on the fact that you can make a child into not-a-child because he/she shares your DNA. But there is a difference between natural childhood (DNA) and spiritual childhood (in Christ), so the analogy does not match up in every respect. I’m disagreeing with Scibelli’s conclustion – I agree with him on eternal security – but I don’t think this particular argument for it holds up.

Bruce Wright comments. Not sure when he came in.

Total calls: 2
GGers: 2

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Tuesday, December 09, 2008

Host: John Love

Finished Work Club offer: _The Release of the Spirit_ by Watchman Nee, said to emphasis brokenness
Two Carl sermons “Humility in the Place of Pride” and “Brokenness: Let….” (missed the rest of that title)

Funding appeal

John Love reads from Matthew 1:21 and following. He teaches for a few minutes.

Carl’s taped sermon: “The Divine Attributes of God Borne in Human Form”, part II

Carl says people don’t pay their commitments they make to local congregations. He doesn’t seem to mean this solely financially. He talks about people living in relative righteousness.

Carl talks about meekness as being about not opposing God, God’s word, God’s will, etc. He eventually gets to the usual definition of meekness as strength under control.

General commentary: After not listening to Grace Hour for a few weeks, I’m struck by how much semi-psychological lingo rolls off Carl’s tongue that the listener is just expected to understand. There’s also a good bit of GG-lingo like “familiar”.

Carl keeps talking about meekness.

Commentary: Granted, I missed the first half of this sermon. That must be where Carl tied this all back int to “The Divine Attributes of God in Human Form”.

Carl says that eventually the believer becomes experientially joined to God. He cites 1 Corinthians 6:17 and a couple other verses.

“15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”[a] 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.” (1 Cor 6:15-17)

Commentary: This doesn’t look experiential to me. 1 Corinthians says that believers *are* members of Christ.


Call-in: John Love, Tom Schaller

John Love says that the economic situation is a good thing because it might make people focus on God instead of on stuff.

Commentary: It was pretty much a bad thing during the Grace Hour funding appeal earlier.

Schaller suggests there is a famine of meaningful interpersonal communication. He says this is the value of a local assembly. He asks listeners if they are being built up.

Schaller: “The basis of all healthy relationships is to love yourself.”

Schaller says they learn divine disciple at GGWO and are healthy because of it. John Love agrees. Schaller says we need to learn how to talk, listen, and praise.

They go “right to the phones” at 10:41.

Caller: Yuka Borai (sp?), GG pastor in Finland

Caller: Lamont, Baltimore

Caller: Marlene, Methuan, Massachusetts – “I just want to thank you and praise this show so much.” Feels like she’s been struggling because she was without a GGWO church for a while. GG Marlborough is about 45 minutes away. She says there isn’t a grace message church in the immediate area. She twice implies that Baptist churches aren’t grace message churches. Knows Morrison from the Charlotte Dunning School.

Caller: Eileen, Maine – gushes about how Grace Hour is building her up

Schaller talks about “closing the circle” & the Fitly Framed conference around New Year’s.

Total calls: 4
GGers: 4

Hodeuon

[hodeuon]

The Grace Hour
Thursday, December 11, 2008

Host: John Love

Finished Work Club offer
Funding appeal

John Love mentions the Incarnation and talks about redemption. He talks about agorazo (to buy), exagorazo (to buy out of), and lutroo (to set free).

John Love states that the OT principle of the kinsman-redeemer “clearly taught” that if God was going to save mankind, He had to be human.

Commentary: With the possible exception of David and Isaiah, I don’t think you could find an Old Testament believer who would say this was “clearly taught”. Looking backward, the kinsman-redeemer certainly foreshadowed Christ but it’s only anything like “clear” with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight seeing how Christ fulfilled the Old Testament.

John Love continues on to how we should live in light of God’s redemption of us. He’s calling the listening audience “friends” a lot. “Oh, this morning take a moment and thank God for the redemption that is ours through Jesus Christ.”

Commentary: It’s 10:20. I’m not sure why there’s not a taped sermon.

John Love prays.

JL says the phone lines will be open the whole hour.

Commentary: Well, it’s 10:25….

Call-in: John Love, Bruce Wright, Steve Scibelli

Wright says last night’s service was amazing.

Scibelli works through a list of reasons why Christ came.

At 10:40 they encourage people to call in.

Caller: Jediah, Baltimore

Caller: Ty, Baltimore

Caller: Shawn, Texas – reads a poem he wrote about Christ

Caller: David, York PA

Scibelli asks where Pastor Duke is – hasn’t seen him in a while. David explains they must have missed each other in Baltimore.

Total calls: 4
3 GGers, 1 frequent caller

Hodeuon