Diary of a Mad Theologian

Prologue:

"For the one who asks recieves, and the one who searches finds, and the one who knocks has the door opened to her..."

Well, it's the dawn of a new era for GG'ers and Ex-GG'ers alike. The old man has gone to his reward and the old saying remains true: "You can't take it with you." I can't help but wonder: Who got the money?...(The Dude is currently single and can be contacted through this site, perhaps we could discuss it over dinner and champagne.)

But seriously folks, no sense in beating a dead horse. Or a dead preacher. Time to move on, forge ahead, and get down to brass bowling balls. Have we learned anything from this experience, or was it just all a big waste of everybody's time and money? Is the God we believed in still at large and covertly operating among His disillusioned children, or is it as a popular singer once wrote: "The three men I admire most, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, they caught the last train for the coast." The Dude has decided to find out.

Since walking out the back door of Frankford Plaza almost 15 years ago it most certainly has been an adventure. Chapters of my biography may include: Ex-Members Guide to Crappy Jobs and Employers; 10 Easy Ways to Throw Your Bible in the Trash; 'Tonite the Bottle Let Me Down'; Lost Soul's Directory to Baltimore Strip Joints; Screaming At God; Never Let Anyone Know You Were in a Cult; She Didn't Tell Me She Was Married; Unbelievers Act Like Assholes Too; Reefer Madness; and Whew! I Don't Have AIDS.

I could add to that list "I Can See Clearly Now." It hasn't been all bad. I know I made the right decision to leave and am a happier person for it. It was God's Spirit prompting me to leave. Despite the sense of loss and the ghosts which occasionally haunt my thoughts and dreams, l'm pretty happy. If I had a choice between the "ignorance is bliss" cloister of TBS/GG "discipleship" and the pockmarked do it yourself path of honest imperfection, I'd choose the latter. "I will choose Free Will." Life is better now.

Throughout the years there has been one constant: Somehow, I still believe in God. There is nothing I have read, seen, heard, or done that could convince me God does not exist. There is a God. I know He's there. Waiting. I know it. And I know this whole TBS/GG thing isn't the end. It's time to seek the Lord.

This thread will represent thoughts and conclusions about God and the Bible from a variety of sources and personal experience. My prayer and hope is for continued healing and spiritual awakening for myself and fellow ex-members, and personal and world wide revival.

When wilt thou save the people?
Oh God of mercy when?
The people, Lord, the people
Not thrones and crowns,
But men
Flowers of thy heart
O God are they
Let them not pass like weeds away
Their heritage, a sunless day
God save the people
(Stephen Schwartz/From the Broadway Musical Godspell)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXZlWBpXsf8

Hey Dude,

All the music I used to listen to makes so much more sense now. Like "Diary of a madman"


Seeing the light, and hearing the still small voice that brings us out from the bondage of comfortability, that is something to praise God for.

Sure is a world of God's wisdom available when we get free. And, its only the beginning! I am starting to see how much has passed by, stuck in the little world of religious duty as I believed every word from overseeing "leaders".

It sure is hard to stay off the topic of ggwo.

I was thinking of all my friends in my teen years before spirituality or religion was part of my life. It was any normal broken and glued-back together family to grow up in. So, the parents work hard and us kids would find our spare time doing our best to party-out. Nothing too weird, but not a clue to the addictive nature of repetitive behavior. Shaking off destructive habits sometimes takes the nurture of a cultic family atmosphere, such as......ggwo. That is one thing that was painfully slow. I have to say it wasn't the messages that produced transformation in plaguing areas, it was recognizing the pain that it caused in people around me.

Enough for now

The music got me hooked, I did'nt have the faintest idea what the lyrics were saying.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diary Of A Madman

[Daisley - Kerslake - Osbourne - Rhoads]

This post has been edited by Ironman on Aug 7 2008, 04:52 AM

It's really a play on words from "Diary of a Mad Housewife," which I haven't read.

Coming Thursday: Why this guy Job is important to us all.

JOB

"You took my joy and I want it back." Lucinda Williams

"Restore to me the joy of my salvation." King David

"Because I'm hung up on dreams I'll never see.
Help me baby, or this will surely be the end of me." Gregg Allman

"Why is light given to one in misery and life to the bitter soul,
Who long for death, but it does not come." Job

The Book of Job. Authorship Unknown. I've read some who say it predates Joshua and Judges because Job was from Uz and not Israel, but it quotes from Psalms and the Prophets so frequently that it must have been written much later. There is a theory that it actually is a very ancient story in its barest form but was embellished by Jewish Authors. Either way, it appears to me now as a story that could almost have been written for ex-members of TBS/GG who have found picking up the pieces of their lives much more difficult than they thought it would be when they quit. For me it is one of the best pieces of literature contained in the Bible and I'm really enjoying it. This guy Job really had the blues.

Here's a guy who lost everything he had. One day life is good, a few days later he has nothing. NOTHING. Everything he had was taken from him, including his health. Property: gone. Livestock: gone. Kids: gone. Health and Vigor: gone. And as he sat in the ashes of what once was his joy and prosperity, "spitting out pieces of his broken luck," there was only one thing left, a thought rolling around Job's mind that said: I WISH I WAS DEAD.

-Let the day perish in which I was born
-Why did I not die at birth?
-Oh that I might have my request, and that God would grant my desire, that it would please God to crush me,
that he would loose his hand and cut me off!

It gets better: Job asks God to get lost, mocking a verse from Psalm 8:
"What are human beings that you make so much of them, that you set your mind on them, visit them every morning and test them every moment?
Will you not look away from me for a while?
Let me alone until I swallow my spittle? (Choke to death.)

He reminds me of Tevia in Fiddler on the Roof after he gets the bad news from the Russian Captain:
"God, I know we are the chosen people, but once in a while could you choose somebody else?"

Can you relate to Job? Has it seemed at times everything you've touched in your life has turned to crap? And what about all that time you spent following God, did it get you anywhere? Were all those years in the church wasted? Is God picking on you?

In Job we may get a few answers...For starters, all this stuff happened to Job and none of it was his fault. It wasn't his fault and he knew it. I think his story mirrors ours in many ways. And hey, it could be worse. You could be Job...

Next Time: Is God a Gambler?

This post has been edited by Dude on Aug 8 2008, 07:26 PM

"What if Job is the paradigm for the normal Christian life?"

One of my favorite professors asked that question years ago in a class and it has haunted me ever since.

"I've been down so long that it looks like up to me..."

If it is some kind of paradigm let's hope we all have the same ending as Job:
"The Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before."

Well, now that everyone's had time to catch up on their reading, is there anyone out there who thinks this story might be a myth? I just finished reading all of the Kethovum, or Writings, and Job stands out to me as possibly being in that category. By myth I mean a story that wasn't necessarily factual but was handed down for generations because of the lessons it teaches. In our century myth has become a bad word when discussing the Bible because it's usually taken to mean LIE, thus proving that the Bible isn't true. I don't mean it that way. I'm thinking more along the lines of Matthew 13:34: "Jesus told the crowd all these things in parables, without a parable he told them nothing." I realize that since Darwin proposed his theory that modern critics have stated most if not all of the Bible is fiction, an argument which rapidly lost ground as archeologists dug up relics to support the Bible faster than the evolutionists could produce fossils to support their theory. (More on this later.)

One argument for Job being a myth is the appearance of two mythological creatures, The Behemoth and the Leviathin. A Hippo could pass for a Behemoth, but if the Leviathan was a whale it had the ability to breath fire. Job reminds me of the Odyssey. But I don't think it matters, Job is a great story and has one of the earmarks of a great myth: It explains why there is suffering in the lives of believers. (You can get on the trail of myths here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth)

In chapter one we meet a character that some would consider mythological, Satan. It's his first named appearance in the OT, although christian theology has made him the unnamed source of trouble for Eve, Adam, and the rest of the human race in Genesis 3, which is possibly another myth attempting to explain our troubles. Is Satan real, or is he a simplistic explanation for some evil force that is at large in our world?

Well, Jesus believed in him. Satan is mentioned more in the gospels than in any other book of the bible. Jesus stated he saw Satan fall from heaven, he's the source of Jesus' temptations, he influences Peter to say the wrong thing, and inspires Judas and the mob at the crucifixion. In Luke Satan claims to give political power to humans as he wills, which makes me think twice about what the talking heads on CNN are saying about the election. Paul, John, Peter, and James all described him as a personality in their writings.

Carl Jung would describe Satan as part of the "collective unconscious," a belief passed from primitive cultures through generations via DNA. That's the reason why the Devil is such a scary image when presented in a Hollywood production. Jung's theory is surprising to me considering his work with severe mental illnesses. On one hand it explains a lot on on the other it leaves unanswered questions. As a friend of mine who is a doctor once said: "I found it hard to believe in demon possession until I visited the asylum and found half the people there think they're either the devil or Jesus Christ." He also mentioned the super human strength some of these people have. In our society we institutionalize our demon possessed, but if you visit a third world country you may see a few of them on the sidewalk.

Is Satan real? Can he really just walk into heaven and challenge God? Is God giving us a simple explanation to a complex problem in Job? Is the world that God created a pretty bad place after all? The difficulty I have with all of this is the emphasis which was put on the subject while I was in TBS/GG. Everything bad that happened seemed to originate from Satan. There was a conspiracy by Satan to stop the ministry. People who quit the church were influenced by Satan. Satan was directing the speech of those who said anything against the church. I was tired of looking over my shoulder, and there were times that I felt if Satan was that powerful maybe we were on the wrong side.

Just prior to my leaving GG I had a conversation with a non-GG christian friend. In other words he was normal. I was saying something about the Devil and finally he just blurted out "Isn't satan defeated?" It really turned my head around. Since leaving I'm not looking around every corner for the Devil, or blaming him for every bad thing that happens. There is a natural order to things. God has set the world in motion and there's some things which simply run their course. Based on the rest of the Bible I doubt God's will is for us to be worried about Satan all the time. "Submit to God, resist the Devil, and he will flee."

So what is the point about Job? Bad things happen to good people. Sin isn't always the cause of our problems, and being free of sin won't eliminate them. "In this world you will have trouble." Although the source of evil in the world seems powerful, utimately it answers to God. Although the introduction to the story put the blame on Satan's shoulders, when God finally speaks He doesn't say a word about it. God's point is I CREATED THE WORLD, DON'T YOU TRUST ME? Ultimately, we are in God's hands, even if for a time it seems evil is winning.

"They showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil the Lord had brought upon him..." Job 42:11

This post has been edited by Dude on Aug 21 2008, 11:12 AM

The word behemoth means simply a huge beast and commentators take it usually to be either a hippopotamus or an elephant. The description fits neither, but it does not mean it has to be a mythological creature. Even though the description does not fit to any living animal on the planet, it may match the probable description of a great land dinosaur, such as the tyrannosaurus that was "the chief" (40:19) of all created land animals. No elephant or hippo has a tail like a cedar, but some dinosaurs had.

Leviathan is mentioned also in Is. 27:1 "the great dragon that is in the sea" and in Ps. 104:25-26 where leviathan played in the great and wide sea. Although commentators tend to call leviathan a crocodile, it was evidently a great, perhaps the greatest of the marine reptiles or dinosaurs, something like a pliosaur or a kronosaurus.

More on the subject.

Sibiricus: Thanks for the input.

Without going into Creationist vs. Evolutionist arguements, most scientists think the dinosaurs predated humans by thousands if not millions of years. I don't really know because I wasn't there.

My opinion is that God worked with human understanding as it was at the time the Old Testament was written. From Biblical times to the settling of the New World mariners told stories of mermaids and sea monsters, explanations for things they didn't understand. I think the point of Job 38-41 is God's greatness as shown in his creation. God had created and could tame the most terrifying beast anyone could imagine.

And who knows what some archeologist will dig up this year. Didn't someone find BigFoot last week?

Job Continued

Miserable comforters are you all. Have windy words no limit? What provokes you that you keep on talking?

Friends like these, huh Gary?...
That's right Dude.

The premis of the story is that Job hadn't done anything wrong. In fact, Job was one of the best guys that God had: "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil." Knowing this we move on to the evaluations and advice of Job's three friends, a conversation which would rival any argument posted on any thread of Discuss GGWO.

For starters they meant well. Job was so bad off when they saw him they didn't even recognize him. They burst into tears and wept aloud, tore thier clothes and threw dust on their heads. "They sat with him on the ground seven days and seven nights, and no one spoke a word to him, for they saw his suffering was very great." They couldn't believe what had happened to their buddy Job.

But as with all good friends they couldn't resist offering their opinion about the situation. As Eliphaz himself put it, "Who can keep himself from speaking?" And their conclusion: YOU ARE BEING CHASTISED JOB!

The arguements of the Friends could be summarized as:

-Job was living in sin
-Job wasn't living up to all God required of him
-Job wasn't a good father
(It was no secret around the neighborhood that Job's kids were partying down on the farm, 1:4, 8:4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI9DMWsGlGY
-Job didn't know his place because he was blaming God for his troubles.
-Job should just move on and "Get Over It"

The counsel received by Job mirrors the experience of probably most everyone who has gone through hard times. Well meaning friends who think they have the answers, well meaning preachers who while quoting from the Bible miss the mark of what's really happening. It seems the belief system which states if we are good we will be blessed and if we are bad we will be punished is still the center of the alleged "gospel message" preached today, and unfortunately in our own minds as well. In Job's case and in many of ours sin didn't have anything to do with it.

It kind of makes you wonder about "fellowship" and the ministry of "the body of Christ." Did Job really need to hear that stuff? Wouldn't it have been more appropritate for the friends to say something like "Geez Job, I'm really sorry about this. Do you need a place to stay? Here, take a couple of my sheep..." Job needed compassion. Instead he got condemnation.

Job's story is also similar to some of what we endured after our decision to quit the church. Well meaning friends telling us we are wrong, not so well meaning self righteous idiots telling us we were being chastised. "You'll be judged by God for this." Or worse, a "still small voice" of guilt and condemnation residing in our memory from years of indoctrination. The similarities between Job and his three friends and the exit process are obvious and too numerous to mention. There truly is "nothing new under the sun."

Through it all Job stood his ground. He wasn't afraid to declare that he was indeed right with God, that there was no sin between him and God, and that he knew God and His word as well or maybe better than those who criticized him. Job was right and he knew it.

Sometimes it's just you and God. Sometimes there's no help, and sometimes it takes real faith to endure and see a decision through to it's ultimate conclusion.

In the end the three friends had to repent. "The Lord said...My wrath is kindled against you...for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." They thought they could speak for God concerning Job, when in fact they were not close to the reality of what had happened to Job. And God didn't like it.

"How long will you comfort me with empty nothings? There is nothing left of your answers but falsehood. " Job 21:34

Hi Dide,
figured you would be looking in on your thread...great article on your fav. flick...in this weeks rolling stone...this should link you to it and the dude's dude.
Be well,
New Kid


http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/226...de_of_the_dude/

Dear reader, Go back to the beginning, do not skip to the end. Take your time and read these posts. Maybe come back again. Even read in reverse, or it may not matter where you read.

Dude your post,..........

Dude Posted: Sep 5 2008, 03:56 PM
Job: Final Installment


.......................is AWESOME!!! Thank you for the reasonable thought of not giving up when everything seems to be for nothing. This installment set me on course!

This post has been edited by Ironman on Sep 5 2008, 04:24 PM

Just a thank you for this refreshing look at spirituality. After 11 years in a GGWO spin-off church it has taken over 7 years to get to the place of even wanting to seek a spiritual life again. This discussion is most helpful in my quest for living a "normal" christian life (whatever that might mean...) Thanks again.

Why?

Klingon Teenager: Do you believe the ancient stories are true?
Warf: When I read the ancient stories I always see new truths in them.

When I was thinking about starting this thread I wasn't planning on beginning with Job. I bumped into it as part of my regular reading and was so surprised at what I'd found I wanted to comment on it. I had purposely avoided Job for many years because I knew it was too close to home. I was bummed out enough, why add to my misery?

I find Job's comments interesting when read straight through, skipping the accusations of his friends. His statements resemble the Psalms and Ecclesiastes and many other philosophical writings in that he is searching for a Reason. He asks questions like "What is life all about?...Why is evil rewarded and good punished?...Why do I have to suffer?...The difference between Job's writer and other ancient philosophers is that his questions are not asked in generalities but are directed to a Supreme God. A truly revolutionary concept in a day and age when most people worshiped objects in the solar system or statues made of stone.

The author's use of metaphor, sarcasm, and hyperbole bring his thoughts to life in way that become pretty comical after you read it a few times. "Is my strength the strength of stones, or is my flesh bronze?" Translation: "I'm only human!" I can almost see Mel Brooks as Job in the movie version saying "Give me a break God, vill ya! Oi!"

From what I've read here and on Factnet and in my e-mail over the last few years, people's exit from GG often falls into one of three categories:
1. They quit and moved on to another church like nothing ever happened.
2. They quit and picked up their career plans like nothing ever happened.
3. They quit and found it difficult to pick up the pieces of what they had lost.
My experience was number 3.

One similarity I found in Job was the loss of his reputation. Maybe while in the church people listened to what you had to say, took notes when you preached or taught, or told you how amazing you were. "I love you..." When you left no one wanted to hear what you had to say and treated you as if you'd grown horns. Isn't it funny how quickly things change, almost as quickly as the fire wiped out Job's property? Here are some of his comments:

They listened to me, and waited and kept silence for my counsel...But now they make sport of me. 29:21-30:2
I am a laughingstock to my friends. 12:4
My acquaintances are wholly estranged from me. 13:13
He has made me a byword of the peoples, and I am one before whom people spit. 17:6
My breath is repulsive to my wife, I am loathsome to my own family. 19:17

As mentioned previously the back and forth between Job and his friends reminds me of some of the banter on this site. Job lost his cool a few times and mocked their reasoning and eventually tells them to shut up:

No doubt you are The People and wisdom will die with you. 12:2
What you know I also know and I am not inferior to you...As for you, you whitewash with lies, all of you are worthless physicians. 13:2,4
Have windy words no limit? Or what provokes you that you keep on talking?16:3
Look at me and be appalled and lay your hand upon your mouth. 21:5

Job's complaint goes on and on, including Chaper 14 which basically says "Life Sucks and Then You Die." Job defended his right to complain, as did the Psalmist King David who despite his successes didn't have it that much better than Job.

I think the point is no one is alone in expressing feelings of woe and despair. Centuries ago there was a guy named Job sitting on a pile of ashes shouting at God, demanding an answer. Don't give up, things aren't as hopeless as they seem. And Job was pretty hopeless. Ultimately he got his answer, although it wasn't the one he expected.

And my question is: Who won the bet, God or satan?

ps. I posted this on FHN. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/world/mi...+Scrolls&st=nyt


This post has been edited by Dude on Aug 28 2008, 06:59 PM

Job: Final Installment

Can I ask Why?
Yes, You Can! That's the beauty of it!
Jim Carey and Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty

"Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?"

God spoke to Job, but did He really answer any of the questions? God didn't even bother to explain what had happened or give a personal assurance that He was in control of the situation. It appears that in spite of any of our arguments or self righteous complaints, We answer to God, God doesn't answer to us. This seems to be at least one of the lessons of Job.

Job is interesting as it seems to contradict one of the major themes of the Old Testament: If you keep the covenant you will be blessed, if you break the covenant you will be cursed. Job demonstrates that people who do the will of God can find themselves in dire straits and that the wicked often do prosper. (A dispensationalist would probably explain that the covenant referred to Israel as a Nation and not necessarily the individuals, but I won't...)

Jeremiah is the other great complainer of the Bible. His situation is closer to some of ours in that his problems resulted from his obedience to the call of God. He found himself cut off from friendships and hated by the religious heiarchy he was commanded to speak against. Chapters 12 and 17 are good examples of his prayers and questions. The answers he received are a bit more direct than the ones Job got, with God promising to avenge him, giving him new instructions, or requiring his repentance. (15:19-21)

My journey after leaving GGWO hasn't been easy, as is the case with many. My prayers, like Job's, often focused on WHY and include reminders to God regarding my personal faithfulness to him. I didn't do anything to deserve this. Reading the stories posted here and on Factnet some found it easier to move forward than I did. I took a position best described as What's The Use and embarked on a path that would rival that of the prodigal son, only without his bankroll. I showed God how bad I really could be, and frankly it brought no happiness and no answers. I couldn't say with any honesty that the blame for the lack of answers rested solely on God's shoulders. I found myself in need of some repentance.

To say that there are often no answers to many of life's questions may seem like a cop out but it is true. I think to simply quote verses for every problem is, well, glib. (Job's friends demonstrated this.) I don't know why I had to go through all that stuff with the church but there's nothing I can do about it now. I don't know why a woman who posts here occasionlly not only had her heart broken by the church but has also had to endure deteriorating health which has landed her in a nursing home. I don't know why Jesus had to suffer the humilition and pain of a crucifixition to provide mankind's salvation. I don't know why people blame God for the problem of world hunger when the human race has the wealth, resouces, and technology to fix it themselves but they just don't give a damn.

I do know that it is folly to think we are greater than God. "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding..." If there's one thing we should have learned from our experience with GG it's that we really don't have all the answers. We thought we were so Right and actually we had it All Wrong. Maybe admitting that is what will put us on the road to greater knowledge of God in the future, and ultimately into the realization that everything happens the way it's supposed to.

There have been various posts on this site regarding the abuse which has resulted from false preachers and prophets who have claimed that God "has spoken" to them. Certainly we were witnesses to that in TBS/GG. But I think what God is saying in the scriptures, and what God has been saying to me, is Don't Give Up. His instructions regarding the christian life are really pretty simple and probably we shouldn't abandon them just because we has a bad experience or because christianity at large often appears to be a hypocritical mess. Probably we shouldn't exchange our mindless faith in GG with the mindless cynicism of the unbelieving world. Probably we should just continue to believe, continue do what's right, and continue to pray.

And it's probably OK that our prayers are peppered with questions and complaints. It seemed to work for Job.

"And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job when he had prayed for his friends, and the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before...The Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning..."

"You have not because you ask not."

Some links a friend sent:

http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/

http://michaelsheiser.com/UFOReligions/