News flash!
GGCF blocks email of those who have any disagreements with them.

Yeah, I know it's not news but because I have been blocked from even simple communication (email) from Marlboro I just have to respond with,
"How childish and spiritually immature is that?"

Reeks of fear, if you ask me.

If you really want to send them an email message, it's easy enough just to create a new email on hotmail or something like that. It would only work once before they blocked that, but at least you would get your message through ;)

Definition?

I like those "cult" definitions. I think gg is characterised mostly in the universal definition and the orthodox bible based definition. When I was in, I thought gg was immune from being cultic because they were orthodox Christian in their fundamental beliefs. In other words, I thought that since the church was orthodox in doctrine, God would keep the church on the right path. Since then I have concluded that "blind faith" is not what God wants from us, but he gave us a brain to use. No leader deserves our complete trust and loyalty, especially those who say they do. Chs often said in his messages that we should check out what he taught to see that it is biblical, yet there are many stories here and other places about people who took him up on it and were consequently ostracized.

After seeing GGWO fit many of these cult definitions in this excellent article, it took me years to classify GGWO as a cult. After all, weren't cults always supposed to have completely non-Christian doctrine? Absolutely not! GGWO cut themselves off from the rest of the body of Christ, proclaimed themselves to having virtually exclusive access to truth and God, proclaimed their leaders and teaching as infallible, and that anyone not in full agreement with their teachings was in big trouble with God. The unmistakable conclusion was that GGWO is indeed a cult disguised as an evangelical church.

As far as checking what was said from the GGWO pulpit against Scripture goes, people were taught that correct Biblical interpretation would always use the same interpretation techniques that GGWO pastors would use to come up with their twisted teachings. So anyone that thought that GGWO teachings didn't line up with Scripture was presumed to be interpreting the Bible in error. Anyone that challenged a GGWO pastor's teachings would typically become an enemy of "the ministry" of GGWO. That usually meant shunning, losing friends within "the body" of GGWO, and even getting slandered from the pulpit. GGWO leaders were never open to correction, but were so quick to condemn and criticize others.

True and truly it has been stated,

Once upon a time we shall cry again as in blindness we follow the faith not of ourselves....


Blind Faith

Had to cry Today

Just thought I would peek in and see if the mouthy little pharisees were still in business. I can see it's on a far smaller scale, but the answer is "yes". Still full of your slanderous epithets and arbitrary definitions. Kind of like the Obama-Left, with their made up words like "homophobic" or relativistic terms like "right-wing extremist" fused into their incendiary rhetoric. You guys should be working for MoveOn.org or the DNC with your adept usage of propoganda techniques.
For those of you (probably about 5) that may possibly visit this site over the next year and never knew Pastor Stevens or any of the major players in GGWO, there are those of us out here who have opposite opinions from what you'll read here. Before you draw any conclusions, consider the possibility that the posters here are simply WRONG!! Avail yourself of what others, who have been in and around this soul-winning ministry, have to say that is positive and Biblical. Regardless of whether any of the accusations made here are actually true or not, there are Bible doctrines that expressly oppose this kind of anti-Christian rhetoric. Have a nice day!

There are man made teachings that oppose the public disclosure of abuses at GGWO on this site, not Biblical ones. The Bible actually commands believers to publicly mark those who cause divisions and offenses contrary to true doctrine. GGWO is an example of that. That is why they have been exposed by name.

Many of us posters did know key leaders at GGWO personally including this poster. We've seen firsthand the falsehoods, the manipulation, the exploitation, and the blind faith in men at GGWO. When so many posters and others on the Net that didn't even know each other disclose the same things about a group, they're correct. The evidence that GGWO is an abusive pastor worshipping cult disguised as an evangelical ministry is overwhelming.

Truth is never afraid of an honest question but GGWO pastors are well known for running away from those questions or giving twisted answers to them as well as frequently hurling accusations at those with the honest questions. These pastors who keep claiming that the Bible condemns any accusations or exposure being aimed at them are so quick to throw plenty of accusations and slanderous exposure at others. What a hypocritical track record.

Laird,
Preach on brother,

Anything new?

btw better to be a positive poster than a pastor beating the wind

In the name of Jesus AMEN

Sidethorn....After all the teaching (which is shared by most traditional evangelicals on this subject) that you have heard, clear as crystal, like so many of the rest of us, it is futile to quote scripture and refer to countless scholars (as I have done in the past) because ALL you are interested in is protecting your own SUBJECTIVE BIAS. The number of false witnesses and the fact that they seem to be independent of each other, proves absolutely nothing. The same happened to Jesus, and subsequently His apostles because it was directed by supernatural forces. Your's is a subjective analysis connected to an agenda!

Same old self righteous nonsense. Its only subjective bias because you disagree with it. So many people are automatically false witnesses because you disagree with them. Same old paranoid persecution complex. Keep on comparing the many, many people that disagree with the one of the very, very few true "churches" in the world (GGWO) with those that persecuted Christ and His apostles. Your worn out psychobabble and that of others in the GGWO fantasy world only further proves what an elitist, manipulative, deceptive cult that GGWO really is. There really is an objective analysis agenda here to warn others to avoid the wolves in sheeps' clothing at Frankford Plaza and other "ministries" under them for peoples' own protection.

"After all the teaching (which is shared by most traditional evangelicals on this subject) that you have heard, clear as crystal, like so many of the rest of us, it is futile to quote scripture and refer to countless scholars (as I have done in the past) because ALL you are interested in is protecting your own SUBJECTIVE BIAS."

That is just not true. The teachings that are at the root of gg's corruption and control are the ones that elevate leaders to a position that cannot be questioned. They include "One pastor for life", "delegated authority" and the unbalanced over emphasis on teachings that say one cannot be critical of or challenge the behavior, character or teaching of church leaders. The fact is most evangelical churches today are ruled by a plurality of elders where ther pastor works for the elders and not visa versa or they have congregational governments.
And before you ggers are critical here because of what you have been taught, please remember that your leaders who often criticize today's churches have seldom if ever visited them.

Sidethorn....The "man-made" teachings you refer to regarding slander, evil-speaking, etc. just happen to be in the BIBLE! They do not only apply to GG, they apply to every church that names the name of Christ! As to "subjective bias" you can argue about "subjective" if you want, but BIAS stands, and you will do what you must to protect it at the expense of what the Bible says. My defense of GG and Pastor Stevens on this point has to do with what the Word says, not a church or a person! This is where you and your buddies have it wrong!
Guest2.....As far as questioning a pastor goes, there a a few points here. First, if I can't study the Bible myself and know the truth on my own then I am one sorry Christian. If I then disagree with the pastor, I have a choice...do I challenge him or just let it go? If it is a peripheral doctrine, then I let it go because I would consider it rude to challenge him in front of his congregants and risk contention. If it were a cardinal doctrine, then I would challenge privately, then publically because it is a foundational issue. This is something that I never had to deal with because it was never necessary. The so-called "pastor for life" comments were simply comments and were never emphasized. The teaching on delegated authority is Biblical, in my view, and is not peculiar to GG. The simplest aspect of it is even practiced in the business realm. But, reasonable people can disagree privately on these issues without causing division.
As far as challenging or criticizing, some things are not expedient to challenge, as I pointed out before, in terms of Christian unity and decorum. Most are willing to agree to disagree agreeably rather than foment contention. This is not the case with most of the posters on this site. Like a bull in a china shop you guys run through causing indiscriminate damage with no regard to over-riding doctrines of love and forbearance. P. Stevens and GG are not the issue, they are merely human, but the Bible IS the issue and needs to be esteemed as such!!

I disagree with your interpretation

Laird:

The fact remains that the GGWO pastorate has slandered and spoken evil of many people that left GGWO or disagreed with them over and over again. Many credible accounts of this practice have come forth whether you want to beleive that or not. There is also no evidence that this practice has ever been abandoned to this very day. Amazing how this so called "ministry" you keep trying to defend has such a track record of total hypocrisy in this area and many others too. Your GGWO leaders scream so loud against people speaking against them but they love to speak against anyone who challenges them, raises honest questions or leaves for another non-GG church. You can claim that you going along with what the Bible says all you want. Many cult leaders and their supporters claim that they go along with what the Bible says or the writings of some other higher power or specially enlightened one. You have proven absolutely nothing other than your willingness to ignore the truth, stick your head in the sand and blindly believe what you are told to believe. Your so called Biblical interpretations are simply the twisted interpretations of the hypocrites that you worship!

You never did challenge the pastor over anything? Right. If you ever did, even privately, you would instantly become an enemy of "the ministry" and would automatically be presumed to be an enemy of God. Many of us, myself included have privately challenged false teachings at GGWO only to be blown off and slandered and spoken evil of in the end. Of course challenging a GGWO pastor is never necessary in the bubble fantasy world of GGWO where everyone is pressured to interpret Scripture the same exact way that the GGWO leadership does. So no disagreements ever arise in that case, do they? If they ever do, you are always the one that didn't interpret Scripture correctly since GGWO pastors are NEVER wrong. Yeah, right!

Wrong Laird. The GGWO teaching on delegated authority is not Biblical and multitudes of churches do not practice it, fortunately. Pastors do have a certain amount of authority in Scripture, but that authority is not the absolute, total authority that the GGWO delegated authority teaching claims. The plain and obvious teachings in Scripture about obeying God rather than man are continually downplayed in GGWO churches where the pastors there are automatically presumed to be the voice of God to the people. That is not taught in Scripture, Bean. Anyone that claims to be the voice of God for the people that is never to be disagreed with is a false shepard that serves self over others. Such are the men you have been defending for years. These men always consider any disagreements with them to be divisive whether private or not.

Sidethorn....You are obviously a clone of Chris Matthews or Bill Maher with your adeptness for bull-shit!! You throw out the word"fact" and expect it to be blindly accepted, I guess because YOU say it is true! The Bible is meaningless to you or you just don't give a diddly damn, one or the other! Try checking out some Bible scholars like Schaefer, or Barnhouse. Maybe you'll find out that you COULD be wrong on these doctrines, because GG does NOT own them!!

Speak for yourself Bean. GGWO threw out fact many years ago and replaced it with leader exalting bullshit from Carl Stevens and other so called scholars that agree with him. Fact is that GGWO is not the only cult out there disguised as an evangelical church. Christian fundamentalism has a number of them and many other fundamentalist churches also place an unbalanced teaching on pastors supposedly having absolute authority over the people that they can never ever be questioned about anything. Not surprising there are some "scholars" that would preach this kind of nonsense. A link to a very good article about cultic churches in Christian fundamentalism recently was put up on this site. You would do well to read it instead of automatically dismissing it as an evil report like many in GGWO were trained to do over the years.

There are many here, myself included that love the Bible but despise your own GGWO private interpretation of Scripture that is blatently flawed. Just because a GGWO pastor preaches something doesn't automatically make it true whether GGWO owns the doctrine or not. Stop worshipping man and think for yourself for a change. God gave you a brain that can think and expects you to use it instead of having a man standing behind a pulpit do all your thinking for you. Blindly using the same Bible interpretation techniques to come up with the same teachings as GGWO pastors and other "scholars" like them is not thinking, its blindly following.

Sidethorn....You don't "love the Bible", Mister, you use it for your own private little agenda of hatred! GG is no cult, by anyone's interpretation that have any intelligence whatsoever! You can preach to your own, small crowd of non-thinkers spreading your garbage if you want, but objective, intelligent Christians will see through it! The "fact" is that these issues have to do with what the Bible says and what is generally accepted as Biblical behavior by those who have diligently studied the Book! You are not only in disagreement with me, you are in disagreement with the large majority of Bible-believing, evangelical Christians universally! You love to insult me and others who defend GG by saying that we "worship" a man or men. This is so ridiculously FALSE it is laughable, and yet you want people to believe your line of bullshit for your own selfish purposes.! Well, have fun Mister, amuse yourself and others like you!!

Same old hateful self righteous bullshit that many intelligent Christians that think for themselves can see for what it really is. Anyone who interprets the Bible differently than these so called experts at GGWO doesn't love the Bible according those so called experts. How arrogant and presumptious can one be? Give it up Bean, your not fooling anyone here or the Christian world at large. These rants of yours only further prove what a self righteous, intolerant, pastor worshipping cult that GGWO really is.

Anytime you put a leader so high up on a pedestal that you feel you should never ever need to disagree with him but always believe what he tells you to believe, you are worshipping him and making him an idol in your heart. Much of the body of Christ in the world knows this and would rather worship Christ without having to lean so much on a man behind a pulpit.

Sidethorn....That is so patently false! Never, EVER have I placed any man above Jesus Christ or the Word of God!! This is what I mean by bullshit! You put this crap out there like some left-wing journalist, and because YOU said it there is no disputing it! How ridiculously arrogant. Why would I challenge any pastor of any church when I have checked up, in the Bible (to see if these things be true), and found that it is accurate? And if I don't agree on some secondary doctrine or comment, is it necessary to even bring it up? I've heard Glen Beck say a lot of things and at the end say, "don't take my word for it, look it up yourself", which is what P. Stevens said many times over the years. I didn't stand 100% in agreement and still don't, but I don't rail on him or GG and never will. Neither do I get on the internet and spout lies like you and your little band of maligners do on this site.
Do you get the point that these are brothers and sisters in Christ?? Or do you even care at all? None of these people you rail on are perfect and are all indeed flawed, as you and I are, but they are the Body of Christ whether you like it or not!! The problem is you are a pharisee and are doing what pharisees do. I would suggest that you get in touch with the Gospels and find out what Jesus Christ's objective for coming to this earth was, and get a change of heart. It might revolutionize your life! You might end up winning some souls for Christ rather than persecuting His people!! Yes, I said His people, because they are, just like anyone else who is born again in any other church in the world. That's all.

blah! blah! blah! blah! blah!

I seriously doubt that you disagree with anything you've heard preached from GGWO pulpits. I doubt even more that you ever confronted a GG pastor to disagree with him about anything, even in private. You know darn well, that if you did, you would very likely lose your friends in "the body", get shunned and get slandered from the pulpit. You would then be an enemy of "the ministry" and and enemy of God in their eyes.

Keep on denying the truth about GGWO as described by many, many witnesses. Keep on describing all of us as evil persecutors of brethren just for revealing the ugly truth about GG. Enough harm has been done to so many people to make strongly worded posts necessary. Your comments here don't have an ounce of credibility and multitudes know it.

On Jul 27 2011, 08:29 PM lbean wrote;

"Sidethorn....That is so patently false! Never, EVER have I placed any man above Jesus Christ or the Word of God! "

lbean, Before he died Pastor Carl Stevens said that a pastor teacher teaches "the Word of God" "AS IT IS WRITTEN".

Later he stated that he dogmaticaly believed that God's name was "Yahweh"
and explained to his listeners that he was trusting in the writings of the Early Church Father, Clement of Alexandria and not in any Hebrew Scripture for his belief that God's name was "Yahweh"

lbean, Do you see any contradition in Pastor Stevens' teaching of why he dogmatically believed that God's name is "Yahweh"

Lbean, Do you happen to believe that God's name is "Yahweh"?

If you happen to believe that God's name is "Yahweh" is there some Hebrew Manuscript that you are trusting in for your belief?, or are you trusting in the writings of Clement of Alexandria. as taught by Pastor Carel Stevens?

Daved

Hi again lbean,

On July 27, 2011 at 08:29 PM you wrote:

Sidethorn....That is so patently false! Never, EVER have I placed any man above Jesus Christ or the Word of God!! This is what I mean by bullshit! You put this crap out there like some left-wing journalist, and because YOU said it there is no disputing it! How ridiculously arrogant. Why would I challenge any pastor of any church when I have checked up, in the Bible (to see if these things be true), and found that it is accurate?


lbean, It is not enough to just check some Bible, which claims to be a translation of some Hebrew Manuscript, when trying to verify that "Yahweh" is found in the some specific Hebrew Manuscript.

To the best of my knowledge [please correct me if you have facts that disagree with what I am about to say"] there is no extant Hebrew Manuscript in which the "HEBREW SPELLING" of Yahweh occurs even one time.**************

Daved

P.S. lbean: If you think what I just wrote is in error, please name one extant Hebrew Manuscript in which "YAHWEH IN HEBREW TEXT" occurs even once.

THe only Hebrew text that I know of that can be transliterated into English as "Y-a-h-w-e-h" is the "QUESS" name that was proposed by Gesenius in the early 1800's

Laird Bean,
Does your middle name begin with L???

Would be cool to have the initials LLBean