Now, I'm not defending or attacking anyone with this, but I honestly thought that a character could use digisoul until they got their crest to evolve their Digimon to a level beyond Adult. Now that I know that others thought the same, I'd like to know what others think on this issue. The rules aren't very clear on that topic, so I'd just like to clarify what is really is. Any thoughts?

I'm all for it. IT's not like it is oen advantage over the other. It's just a transition.

Well, You guys know my opinion ^^;;

Digsoul and Crest are seperate, you pick one, a character shouldn't have ever both anyway >.>

Unless I'm misunderstanding the topic at hand, it's a moot question.

The I guess the question hasn't been explained properly. As zander said, It would be a transition between the two, the tamer wouldn't have both, just the crest. I would get into an explaination of the concept as I understand it, but there would be no point in doing so if this question turned out to be as 'moot' as you said it was Ryu.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, a character can only use one or the other? (Crest or Digisoul)

I suppose so, though you could always just emulate a Tamer's emotion into letting the partner evolve to Adult, as you do anyways with choosing a Crest.

Sorry to say guys, but I agree with Ryuha on this matter. To me, it just seems rather unfair to those who already have either a crest or their digisoul. Then turn around and allow a character to have both.

This is just my opinnion, but to have two different forms of evolution is just unfair to the other members here. Plus, it kinda defeats the purpose of working extra hard to obtain a crest when you could just evolve your digimon with a digisoul to reach perfect form.

*crawls out of her hotel room*

I'm thirding what Ryu and Aqua have already said. Personally and honestly, I've found this to be very clear as many people have asked about Digisoul and Crests and the staff, albeit not saying it's in the rules, have very clearly stated that you only get one in both posts in the Question area and the CBox.

As well, I too think that it is quite unfair to have both. While it does not give you any sort of special powers or boosts in strength, it's just not right to have the pleasure of both uses. Everyone here is allowed to have three characters, which means everyone can have a character who uses each one of the methods if they so please. Wanna try out a Crest? Have one character go for it, but try out for a Digisoul in the next one. To have one that includes multiple methods just can be overkill on the character, and can also appear superficial to the reader.

As for having the Digisoul before a Crest, it is moot. There is no real need to have it. Crests are in a way a celebration of obtaining Perfect levels, and if need be that you really really really want to achieve Perfect level without a Crest yet, use a card. There's plenty of them to give an effect.

*pops up out of the soapbox*

From a general point of view, I agree with Ryuha, Aqua and Lai in that if they can help it, Tamers should only have one method of evolution throughout their "journey." Emphasis on "general."

However, at the risk of being labelled biased toward Mase, a "n00b sympathiser" (if that's the case, then so be it) or whatever, I'd like to reiterate my view that David Lakner, and only David Lakner, deserves to be a special exception - it is, by no stretch of the imagination, his fault he misinterpreted an extremely ambigous rule. Until I see it explicitly stated that "future users of Crests may not use a DigiSoul to evolve to Adult or below" or words to that effect, I'll have to disagree with those who've said "the rules are perfectly clear."

I'd also like to point out that not only has Drak Duncan used a DigiSoul for Armor Evolution when Cleo has mentioned on AIM that he "may get a Crest," but Jorris Evange of the same author has his evolution method listed as "DigiSoul until obtaining Crest." I'm not excusing her from that - just saying that if our longest standing admin can get it wrong, surely an ordinary member getting it wrong is nothing, and that he shouldn't be punished for simple ignorance.

I'm aware that usually, bending the rules for one member alone is a bad thing, but come on. It's obvious this Crest means the world to Mase; he's had his heart set on it for nearly a year. As a recovering canon nazi, I know what it's like to have your heart broken because of the "rules," and while everyone who reads this has every right to ignore it, I'd like to implore you to look into your hearts and, at the very least, consider letting someone who is, for better or worse, a valuable member of our community get something he's clearly been pouring his heart and soul into for a very, very long time now.

My bad. Agreeing with both GH and Lost for obvious reasons. *mad eye-twitch*

Weeeeell... if you wanna be technical about it, everyone uses Digisoul to get to the levels below perfect. Am I wrong in assuming that a Digisoul is the manifestation of a human emotion into energy that allows the digimon to digivolve? And am I wrong in assuming that most of the time the tamer usually feels a great emotion when it comes to at least armor digivolving and sometimes when it comes to digivolving to adult. With that in mind, is that not the same as a Digisoul? Let's see... strong emotion, check! Gets turned into energy for evolution? Check!!! Oh wow! I think its very very very similar. The difference is, no one calls it a Digisoul and there isn't a visible physical manifestation of it but it still does the same thing as a Digisoul and it still does have a great deal to do with how the tamer is feeling.

In that sense, I believe that technically every tamer, before gaining his/her crest, actual digisoul, or blue card uses a Digisoul of some kind. Correct me if I'm being to technical or analytical or I'm wrong. Its food for thought though.

If this is completely stupid, just ignore it. I think Mase should be allowed his crest due to the staff being unclear with the rules. In all honesty, I don't see the problem with having a digisoul as I have described to use for the levels below Perfect. You say its unfair but is it really fair to tell someone now they can't do it after so many people before them have? No, it isn't. And if we allow it for everyone, then its hardly unfair. I fail to see the problem it would cause by allowing people to use a form of digisoul for lower evolutions. It would be a weaker one that would never get them passed Perfect. Hell, maybe the digisoul that Mase is using is the beginning of his crest and when he moves on to perfect then it can morph itself into the Crest of Will.

Either way, I think we either need to make the rules more clear and let Mase go ahead (as Schmeg so justly said) or suck it up and shut up. Like Schmeg said, there have been other members to do this and hell, when Lucas thought he was going to get a crest, he was using a digisoul. Cleo put it on Jorris's sign up even and no one said a word to her. Maybe because it was accepted so quickly but I've had people come in and say someone isn't accepted after I've accepted them.

*eyes this post and rubs her eyes* Wow, I do get way more analytical when exhausted... and I ramble more.

Sorry if I worded that wrong, Cleo: I wasn't calling you out on that or pointing a finger at you; quite the opposite in fact. Come to think of it, I apologise for any toes I might have stepped on in my last post; it's just something I feel strongly enough about to warrent a rant rather than a logically, carefully presented opinion.

My point is, if someone with first-hand knowledge of the rules of Digital Dreams can overlook this rule, surely anyone can. Not Cleo, nor Mase nor anyone should have to suffer for that.

And as something else that just occured to me: it's not compulsory for a DigiSoul user to have to use a DigiSoul to evolve to Child, Armor or Adult (Julien certainly won't). It's a different thing, I know, but it's at least slightly relevent food for thought.

Now I'm thinking a little clearer, may I should boil down my admittedly overlong post into my pure and simple opinion (keep in mind, that's all it is) on the matter: the rule of never using a DigiSoul before obtaining a Crest should definately be enforced in the future, but not retroactively. For as long as I've been part of this site, the words "not" and "retroactive[ly]" have been part of any significant changes to, or revision of, the rules. Why not this one?

EDIT: Damn, ninja posted again:

Thank you, Lost. That's pretty much exactly what I've been trying and failing to say all along.

If it was purely a matter of the largely cosmetic choice that some members make to use a Digisoul prematurely for lower evolutions, it would be no problem at all.

However, it isn't. David has already been using his Digisoul to evolve his partner to the Perfect level from what I have seen. Here is at least one example, and from reading other posts I'm not sure other people are realizing that... I could be mistaken but I want the point clear.

Evolution to Adult can be accomplished without special means, but any further requires the use of a special method of some note - Crest, Digisoul, or Blue card.

Note that I am not weighing either way on this issue yet. Simply making a clarification I believe is necessary

Thanks for the clarification, Vn, however I was aware of that, and in spite of it, still stand by my belief that the ideal scenario would be to enforce a new rule against DigiSoul/Crest "transitions," but not retroactively, enabling Mase to at least try out for a Crest. Of course, in the end, it's all up to you, Cleo and Ryuha.

I think I speak for all of us when I say: sorry for blowing this out of proportion, Mase ^///^;;

Noted, though some remarks of yourself and others here suggested otherwise.

My fault for wording certain things incorrectly, as well as overlooking the fact that I was aware of the events of Brawl Time due to that being irrelevent to my overall opinion ^^;

First off, I'd like to point out that because I am not nearly as literate as the rest of you on this site, my post will look like crap in comparison ^^;; and I am sorry about that. And secondly, I don't know if any one else noticed, but this isn't about me or my character, I'm just the only example of a member who is facing this problem, ^^;;

Alright, now to my post and because every one else has already stated the facts, I'm just quote you guys ^_^

- Aqua

I need to point out that I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE BOTH. That would be against the rules, and really there would be no point of it, they both do the exact same thing ^^;; after that I would like to ask you all to think about something for me Kay? Aqua says having a digisoul, then getting a crest would defeat the purpose of working extra hard to get a crest when I could just use my digisoul, but what if acquiring a crest has a little more value then just being able to digivolve to perfect level to the person trying to get it?.

Now, In my case, when I reached 3.0 DEP, I was not only in no position as a writer to try for it. (I still suck at this, but I was even worse back then.) But I was unable to, not just because I couldn't do any thing more then one half ass'd post a day, but because I couldn't post IC in anywhere besides the training fields. so, should I not be alowed to have a crest because I wasn't ready at the time? cause that would be like punishing me for getting as stong as I did as fast as I did >.> how fair is that?

- Laiko

Again, I don't understand why you guys think I want both, or really, how it would be unfair to have both anyway, they do the exact same thing! I want to get a crest because of what it stands for, I would have 'tried for a crest' like I was planing to, after we finished our thread in the swamps >.> I wanted to have a normal adventure first, but seeing how that worked out, I wasn't able to.

- Eggnog

Eggnog, you have to quit sympathizing with me, I'm wrong most of the time ^^;; and I don't want any special privileges either, what I’m proposing, is that every one should be able to have a chance at getting a Crest, regardless of whether or not they had a digisoul or blue card before then. Some people just aren't ready to try to get a crest, till they have a bit of character development behind them and more experience as a writer. Crests only go for the best of the best, some people just aren't good enough for that by the time they get 3.0 DEP. I sure as hell wasn't, and maybe, it would be better for every one, If the rules were changed so that every one has a fair chance at getting a crest.

-Eggnog

With out calling out Cleo, who just happens to be my longest standing friend and role model (besides Deli, but I never talk to him anymore ^^;;), what she wrote about using a digisoul before getting a crest, was kind of what told me that it would be ok to have a digisoul until i was ready to try for a crest. I'm not saying it's her fault I used a digisoul, I just figured that if she was doing it, it wouldn't be against the rules ^^;;

- VN

Thank you for pointing that out VN, I don't think anyone really reads what I post unless there's some kind of controversy going on around it ^^;; I stand by my use of the digisoul to digivolve past perfect level, but I also stand by my opinion that every one should have the chance to get a crest even if they have used a Digisoul.

Really though, Do any of you people actually read my posts? Like really! If my wanting to get a crest after using a digisoul was against the rule, why the hell didn't any body point that out to me until just now!? I mean, If you have read my posts, then you would know that I have been very open with the fact That I intend to try for a crest, and I have said so many times since using a digisoul and no body told me other wise.

It hurts that no one seems to give a crap, but what I can't get over is that not one of you gave me the heads up. Like schmegy said, I have been putting my all into trying to get good enough to even think of getting a crest, and really, I was hoping to prove that I was good enough for one before I even tried for it. It's been a year now, and just when I think I’m almost ready to live up to my piers, I get told that I can't, not because I'm not good enough, but because I was to stupid to know any better.

Like I said before, getting a crest means more to me then you guys seem to understand. I just learned that I have been a member of Digital dreams longer then any one else, I was here before Deli, AJ, Cleo, and Doc. it might sound like I'm bragging or something, but this fact just makes this harder for me. Those four people were, and still are my idols. Deli was my mentor and became one of the most important people on this site, he was quite easily the best writer in DigiD at the time. I see AJ as the guy who has the single strongest player character on the site, Cleo is the only Admin who been here long enough to have seen DigiD evolve. Even if Doc hated every thing about me, And he wasn’t to shy to admit it either >.>, he was the guy who saved digital dreams.

It might not matter to you guys, but living up to them means a lot to me, I mean, through my eyes, they are the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be. We all started around the same time, it was like the five of us were a class, but when they were excelling and proving them selves to be the best, I was proving time after time that I was the worst. And here we are, years later, and I'm still the worst, I've gotten better, but so has every one else. I wanted a crest because of what it means to have one, getting a crest to me is like finally being able to see my self as something other then a newb.

What ever, you guys will do your thing, and I’ma going to keep doing mine. Just remember something. (I’m posting this as a promise to my self, I’ve had a few silent vows that I've mostly been able to keep, but this is something I’ve been thinking about for a little wile now) by July 5th of next year, I'ma be the single strongest tamer on this site. I might not be able to match you guys as a writer, but I am going to live up to the promise I made Doc, I'm going to be the best. Nothings changed about that, I'ma be the best with or with out a crest.

I'll end this the way I started it, by reminding you all that this topic is not about me, and I’d like it if you stop using me as an example because this topic is about every one who are hoping to continue on this site.

I would like to know the answer to this as well. How is it unfair to have two things that do the same thing? It might be frivolous or unnecessary, maybe even silly but I fail to see how it is unfair when this is brought into light. And also, there's no reason why someone can't have a Digisoul first and then lose the ability to use it after they obtain a crest. Again, maybe the main emotion behind that digisoul was put into the crest and it was no longer necessary to allow it to escape that way.

Really, I'm all for allowing Digisouls before crests if the Digisouls no longer function after obtaining the crest and they can give a valid reason why it doesn't.

Seconded.

First of all, while you insist this isn't about you Mase, I think it bst to deal wiht your specific case before moving on to the abstract. I do not object to you trying for a crest, as you didn't know better and were in need of some imporvement in your skills anyway. But, and this is important, at least to me, lose the Digisoul somehow in the process of gettign the crest. Maybe have it blown away by a powerful attack or broken and rendered unusable when David gets the crap kicked out of him, or something else. Not only would it clear up this problem, but it would make a fine plot point and lead to good literary fodder, helping your story and thus improving your chances of getting your crest confirmed.

Now, in the larger abstract. Digisoul for lower-than-perfect forms is purely cosmetic, as Vn said. I don't care one way or the other about it. In future cases though, I do believe it should be clear that a given character only gets one of the perfect evolution methods, and when the Digisoul is used to get perfect form, that sets it in the slot.

It's true that they do the same thing, with very little practical difference in how they do it. This means having more than one isn't mechancially broken. What it is though is a breach of tradition for no good reason. This choice is a major, defining factor of a character, and for two long, bumpy, but wonderful years, the selection people have made in this area has been something of paramount importance to them, something they thought about about for weeks or months, or something they just knew.

Want a crest, but not ready to try for one right away when you reach 3.0, then wait to evolve. You don't need to have perfect form access to play this game, it's a bonus, an honor, not a nessecity. If you really, really want to evolve, there are three generation of DD Day cards (and a few other evolution effects in circulation that will do the job just fine. Surely one out there will appeal to this hypothetical future member.

To make a long story short, my opinion here is, in the future, these hypothetical members should pick one and stick with it. Just like so many of us before have been happy to.

Let me just add that, in Season One, it took a certain type of emotion to activate the Crests, just like it does here. If we were going to split Digisoul and Crest away from each other, it would be like saying "Milk and cows are not associated."

In fact, if I remember correctly, it took a great deal of that certain emotion to acitvate the Crests. The theme of that could be easily swayed to mean that, instead of a Digisoul being fed directly through the D-ban and into the Digimon as energy, it requires the additional energy of a Crest to enpower an evolution past the Adult level. It would be easy enough to consider if we remember that not all Digisouls are vastly powerful cosmic forces. It is a tamer's will, their primal emotions. What comes from a person of lmited emotion and output? A weaker Digisoul, that's what. It would be natural to assume that a weaker Digisoul couldn't produce a more vivid evolution as a more emotional person's could.

On another hand, goat's milk doesn't have any relation to cows.

In which case would be the Crest.

A Crest is not a manifestation of emotions like the Digisoul, but rather, an item that represents the strongest trait of someone. Take for example, the Crest of Friendship. It'd be granted to someone who values friendship over other things, not because he felt so much emotion that he had obtained it.*

*undefined; personal opinion

Look Mase, I'm sorry that we upset you over all this. But I was merely stating my opinnion about all this, not trying to discourage you. This started off as a discussion of opinnions and that's how it should remain.

I can see no reason you can't try out for your crest, so long as you get rid of your Digisoul in the process. Leaving you and Cleo (I think) to be exceptions to the rule.

But in the general view of this, my opinnion still remains as that of Ryuha's. I just don't want this to turn ugly...

Sorry, no can do; I don't sympathise with people just because they're "right," I sympathise with people I feel need it. And "wrong" or not, we're all part of this community :-_l:

Other than that, I really don't have anything else to say now that, thanks to Ryuha, this issue seems to be close to getting resolved... other than that I'm a little surprised her view of what should be done turned out to be practically exactly the same as mine. ^^;; If that isn't a lesson about the needlessness of conflict (not that it got as bad as some events in DD's past), I don't know what it is.

I'd also like to second her statement that evolution is in no way essential to one's enjoyment of Digital Dreams, far from it in fact - when you get down to it, nor is battling. A lot of people seem to have it in their heads that it is, but it's not, by any stretch of the imagination. There's a lot to be said for an adventure consisting mostly of dialogue, or - as your own posts as of late have demonstrated - inner monologues. I'm not saying battle threads are bad - just that there's more to life than them... and that it gets much easier to appreciate "peaceful" adventures once you've tried 'em, trust me. :^,^:

And I also have to admit you could make getting the Crest of Will out of David's DigiSoul somehow kick arse; maybe have it solidify from the 'Soul after David realises what it means to be determined or something. Speaking of which, it was a good thing you have a specific emotion trigger David's DigiSoul, and that Will/Determination could be considered either an emotion or a personality trait - like what Zander said. Perhaps David could graduate from a DigiSoul powered by spur-of-the-moment determination to a Crest powered by the eternal Will in his heart?

/ramble

Well, I wish you luck in obtaining both permission to try for that Crest, and actually getting it :=): *slinks away*

Ok, if we are attempting to deal with my problems first, I'd like to point out that I'm still waiting on an admin for my second character.

Mase is the only exception to this since the rule was never clarified until now. Everyone else is going to have to stick with the choices they have made as per the rule amendment above. Particularly where the exclusivity of canon Crests is involved, we do not want it turning into a whimsical game of Musical Chairs.

Lucas now speaks! So you can all put your headphones in and not listen till I'm done.

While I agree that if you were INTENT on getting a crest, you should not have evolved to perfect form yet. Take My Character Lucas for example. Falcomon has 3.2 DEP or possibly more, I forget, and is still a ROOKIE. Proving that evolution doesn't have to occur simply because you have the DEP.

As to how to fix it? Simple. In your Crest venture, have him empty his digisoul into the creation of the crest. (I personally can see a kid encased in light, his digisoul flowing into the air where it gets condensed and transformed into a crest, which then explodes and allows for perfect level evolution. Thats personally how Lucas would've created his own, had I decided to use that method.)

Future Rulings? I agree. When you evolve to perfect form, the FIRST method you choose is going to be locked in stone. I also agree that this would apply ONLY to the future.

As for pre-Perfect? I say it doesn't matter. Either use the digisoul, and have it morph into a card/crest during your crestventure/at 3.0 dep, or don't, and just act like the regular digidestined and have the d-ban do all the work. As long as the method you use the FIRST time you go perfect is you chosen in stone method.